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California Bill Proposes Removing Cops Who Express Religious Or Conservative Beliefs

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Roy View Post
    Now we're getting somewhere.

    Conservative/Christians object to this bill because they advocate denying rights to certain groups, and those rights are considered by some to be constitutional.

    Is that correct?
    No. Conservative/Christians object to this bill because we advocate allowing religious freedoms, where some groups disagree with that expression. Especially when some interpretations of the law call that expression of freedom discriminatory.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

      No. Conservative/Christians object to this bill because we advocate allowing religious freedoms, where some groups disagree with that expression. Especially when some interpretations of the law call that expression of freedom discriminatory.
      But as noted, this bill concerns advocating
      1) violence,
      2) genocide,
      3) denial of constitutional rights.

      It has no bearing on expression of religious freedom unless that expression includes advocating violence, genocide or denial of the constitutional rights of certain groups.

      Are the religious freedoms you advocate allowing violent, genocidal, or rights-denying?

      Your dodging and diving suggests that you and other conservative Christians object to this bill because it would prevent you from advocating the denial of rights to some groups. You have avoided specifying which rights those are, but it doesn't take much imagination to wonder whether you wish to deny homosexuals the right to express their own religious freedom (e.g. by marrying).

      Of course, I may be wrong. You may instead wish to deny women or blacks the right to vote, have fair trials or assemble.



      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

      mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

      Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
      Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.
      Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Roy View Post
        But as noted, this bill concerns advocating
        1) violence,
        2) genocide,
        3) denial of constitutional rights.

        It has no bearing on expression of religious freedom unless that expression includes advocating violence, genocide or denial of the constitutional rights of certain groups.

        Are the religious freedoms you advocate allowing violent, genocidal, or rights-denying?

        Your dodging and diving suggests that you and other conservative Christians object to this bill because it would prevent you from advocating the denial of rights to some groups. You have avoided specifying which rights those are, but it doesn't take much imagination to wonder whether you wish to deny homosexuals the right to express their own religious freedom (e.g. by marrying).

        Of course, I may be wrong. You may instead wish to deny women or blacks the right to vote, have fair trials or assemble.


        Again, read the OP. It lays out those things conservatives are challenging as repercussions of this bill. Opposition to Prop 6 would be considered an acceptable position for a Christian. It is not a right to be required to support it. But again, it's who gets to determine what "denial" means and whhat "rights" mean.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
          Again, read the OP. It lays out those things conservatives are challenging as repercussions of this bill. Opposition to Prop 6 would be considered an acceptable position for a Christian. It is not a right to be required to support it. But again, it's who gets to determine what "denial" means and whhat "rights" mean.
          Right. Propositions 6 and 8. Conservative Christians wish to deny homosexuals the right to express their religious beliefs through marriage, or to work in schools. They advocate denying rights to certain groups.

          But when I asked
          "Conservative/Christians object to this bill because they advocate denying rights to certain groups, and those rights are considered by some to be constitutional.

          Is that correct?
          ... you replied "No." You seem to be in denial.


          As for who gets to determine what 'denial' means and what 'rights' mean, it's clear to me that
          - Marriage is often a religious ceremony
          - The US constitution includes the right of religious freedom
          - The US constitution applies to all US citizens
          therefore the US constitution precludes denying people the right to get married.


          Also, you're omitting again. You say opposition to prop 6 would be acceptable, but don't say anything about support for prop 6. And you haven't said anything about prop 8 at all. Though you may have mixed them up.


          Last edited by Roy; 04-07-2021, 11:51 AM.
          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

          mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

          Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
          Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.
          Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Roy View Post
            Right. Propositions 6 and 8. Conservative Christians wish to deny homosexuals the right to express their religious beliefs through marriage, or to work in schools. They advocate denying rights to certain groups.
            Utterly false. First, those things are not rights. speaking out against Prop 8 is not denying anyone anything. It's speaking out against a proposed law that granted a new category of individuals eligibility to be a spouse. Again, speaking about the Proposition isn't denying anyone rights. It's disagreeing with a piece of proposed legislation.


            But when I asked
            ... you replied "No." You seem to be in denial.

            You seem to be under the mistaken impression that these later-granted privileges are actually rights.

            As for who gets to determine what 'denial' means and what 'rights' mean, it's clear to me that
            - Marriage is often a religious ceremony
            Irrelevant. No one is trying to stop pointless (in our view) religious activities.

            - The US constitution includes the right of religious freedom
            - The US constitution applies to all US citizens
            therefore the US constitution precludes denying people the right to get married.
            No one is denying anything. We just consider their "vows" pointless exercises. Just like you guys consider our practices.


            Also, you're omitting again. You say opposition to prop 6 would be acceptable, but don't say anything about support for prop 6. And you haven't said anything about prop 8 at all. Though you may have mixed them up.
            Probably mixed them up. Again, please read the OP article to see the objections. You may not like them, but those objections have no authority to deny anyone the ability to do as they please. So, again, my answer is no, the objection to SSM does not actually deny anything.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              Utterly false. First, those things are not rights.
              Free exercise of religion is a right defined in the first amendment of the US constitution.
              speaking out against Prop 8 is not denying anyone anything. It's speaking out against a proposed law that granted a new category of individuals eligibility to be a spouse.
              Did you actually read the article you posted? It doesn't talk about conservative Christians that speak out against prop 8, it talks about conservative Christians that support prop 8:
              Source: OP

              Pacific Justice Institute Senior Staff Attorney Matthew McReynolds said this broad and purposefully arbitrary definition could give way for Christians and conservatives to be classified as “hateful” based on the premise of rejecting abortion or supporting Proposition 8 in California, a same-sex amendment that passed in 2008.

              © Copyright Original Source


              Your continued attempt to focus on opposing prop 8 is misleading.
              Irrelevant. No one is trying to stop pointless (in our view) religious activities.
              ...
              No one is denying anything. We just consider their "vows" pointless exercises. Just like you guys consider our practices.
              Prop 8 was explicitly described on the ballots as "Eliminates Rights of Same-Sex Couples to Marry", and the text was " Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.".
              So, again, my answer is no, the objection to SSM does not actually deny anything.
              It denies same-sex couples their right to express their religious views by marrying their partners.

              Conclusion: Conservative Christians wish to deny certain groups their constitutional right to freely exercise their religion, by establishing their conservative Christian view of marriage as law. This contravenes the proposed law, hence they oppose it.

              Additional conclusion: You are willing to engage in whatever omissions, reversals and misrepresentations are necessary to deny this, up to and including pretending that preventing religious freedom is allowing religious freedom.
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

              Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.
              Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

              Comment


              • #37
                Here is the text of the bill. Since the OP, the bill has been amended, and much of the problematic language has been adjusted.

                There could still be issues with a few things, such as the inclusion of "mental harm" in the definition of "genocide," and the fact that "violence" is not defined. Once upon a time, there was a generally agreed upon definition of "violence," but now it's very much in the eye of the beholder.
                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                Beige Nationalist.

                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                  Here is the text of the bill. Since the OP, the bill has been amended, and much of the problematic language has been adjusted.
                  I see they've removed the clauses about denying constitutional rights, possibly in response to objections from conservative Christians.

                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                  Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.
                  Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Roy View Post
                    I see they've removed the clauses about denying constitutional rights, possibly in response to objections from conservative Christians.
                    Perhaps. When it contained that language, a conservative Christian LEO could easily have something along the lines of, "I think the way Masterpiece Bake Shop is being persecuted is terrible. Their Constitutional rights are clearly being violated." The officer's opinion is itself protected speech. But a typical progressive fiend would accuse him of wanting the rights of the plaintiff in the Masterpiece case to be violated. Now it's harder to attack from that angle.
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Nationalist.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                      Here is the text of the bill. Since the OP, the bill has been amended, and much of the problematic language has been adjusted.

                      There could still be issues with a few things, such as the inclusion of "mental harm" in the definition of "genocide," and the fact that "violence" is not defined. Once upon a time, there was a generally agreed upon definition of "violence," but now it's very much in the eye of the beholder.
                      A case of "let's see if we can make this fly, but if we get too much static, we can pare it down a bit?
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Roy View Post
                        Free exercise of religion is a right defined in the first amendment of the US constitution.
                        And no one is suggesting limiting their religious expression. They are perfectly free to stand before the willing clergy member of their choice and vow to each other till the cows come home. You seem to be conflating the legal and religious aspects of what we call marriage.


                        Did you actually read the article you posted? It doesn't talk about conservative Christians that speak out against prop 8, it talks about conservative Christians that support prop 8:
                        Source: OP

                        Pacific Justice Institute Senior Staff Attorney Matthew McReynolds said this broad and purposefully arbitrary definition could give way for Christians and conservatives to be classified as “hateful” based on the premise of rejecting abortion or supporting Proposition 8 in California, a same-sex amendment that passed in 2008.

                        © Copyright Original Source


                        Your continued attempt to focus on opposing prop 8 is misleading.

                        Prop 8 was explicitly described on the ballots as "Eliminates Rights of Same-Sex Couples to Marry", and the text was " Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.".
                        It denies same-sex couples their right to express their religious views by marrying their partners.
                        Sorry. I am multitasking with work stuff. And no, it does not stop them from expressing their religious views. It simply sought to deny them legal recognition of the result of their religious ceremony.

                        Conclusion: Conservative Christians wish to deny certain groups their constitutional right to freely exercise their religion, by establishing their conservative Christian view of marriage as law. This contravenes the proposed law, hence they oppose it.
                        Conclusion: Roy is conflating the legal and religious aspects of a wedding ceremony.

                        Additional conclusion: You are willing to engage in whatever omissions, reversals and misrepresentations are necessary to deny this, up to and including pretending that preventing religious freedom is allowing religious freedom.
                        Additional confusion: Roy doesn't really know the difference between a religious ceremony and a legally binding contract.
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          Sorry. I am multitasking with work stuff.
                          So am I, so that excuse for your sloppiness fails.
                          t denies same-sex couples their right to express their religious views by marrying their partners.
                          And no, it does not stop them from expressing their religious views. It simply sought to deny them legal recognition of the result of their religious ceremony.
                          Which is unconstitutional, since it establishes some churches' marriages as being legally recognised, and others not.

                          It's also repressive and bigoted.
                          Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                          mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                          Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                          Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.
                          Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            So am I, so that excuse for your sloppiness fails.
                            I frankly don't care

                            Which is unconstitutional, since it establishes some churches' marriages as being legally recognised, and others not.
                            The bigamist churches ceremonies aren't recognized beyond one marriage either. Just watch sister wives for some evidence of that.

                            It's also repressive and bigoted.
                            So?
                            That's what
                            - She

                            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                            Stephen R. Donaldson

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                              Here is the text of the bill. Since the OP, the bill has been amended, and much of the problematic language has been adjusted.

                              There could still be issues with a few things, such as the inclusion of "mental harm" in the definition of "genocide," and the fact that "violence" is not defined. Once upon a time, there was a generally agreed upon definition of "violence," but now it's very much in the eye of the beholder.
                              Which is why I brought up "microaggressions" earlier since some on the left consider speech they disagree with to be a form of "violence." I mean when someone can consider "mental harm" to be "genocide"...

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                It's also repressive and bigoted.
                                So?
                                If you don't think that's a problem, then the objections to same-sex marriages evaporate.
                                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                                mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                                Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                                Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.
                                Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                                Comment

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