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Have any of you gotten a vaccine?

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  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Why the constant appeals to the ad hominem fallacies? Surely if there was evidence against Classen's study then people should be posting that instead of merely attempting to smear the author's character.
    People have posted evidence against it. I gave two links on the topic! (Sparko also posted them after this post of yours) It makes no sense for you to complain about people not posting evidence against it when people did.

    As for the complaints about ad hominem, the problem here is that while criticizing the person making the argument isn't directly addressing the argument, it can be a good gauge as to how seriously one should take the argument. Given that everyone has finite time in their life and can't be carefully evaluating and responding to every single argument or claim they see, seeing if there's a reason not to take the arguer seriously can be a good way to evaluate the probability that the argument is worth spending much time on to begin with.

    Here's an example. Suppose there's a book that offers 5 arguments as to some topic (it could be anything). So I take a look at some of the footnotes in one of their arguments and discover they've horribly misrepresented their sources. But if I were to say that and say "so don't bother with this book" that's ad hominem! After all, I'm not actually providing any real response to their other arguments; instead, I'm just attacking the arguer as unreliable because of how bad one of their arguments was. That's absolutely ad hominem. But it's hardly unreasonable to do so, because if someone has a history of bad arguments and misrepresentation, it considerably increases the probability that their other arguments are equally lacking.

    Similarly, if someone has a history of attacking vaccinations on questionable grounds, it is not unreasonable that when you see them make new attacks, that they are doing the same thing as they did before (and if nothing else, have a clear bias in the area). All of this applies doubly if this argument is only being offered by themselves or similarly questionable individuals rather than people who don't have such a past.

    Furthermore, despite your complaint, I notice that you've then done the same things you complained about, namely rejecting an argument or claim because you have a low opinion of the source. I don't even need to look elsewhere, because in that very same post, you write:
    Furthermore, I've seen you dismiss arguments or claims based on who made them! Heck, you do that in this very post:
    And seriously, Sparko, Wikipedia? You should know better.
    Rather than disprove anything Wikipedia said, you just dismiss it because of where it came from. A complete ad hominem.

    And then you do it again here in this topic:
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Both links are little more than an attack on the man's character, an attempt to smear him as an "anti-vaxxer", and the parts in the first link that actually deal with Classen's claims directly are delivered with the sort of unprofessional mocking tone I'd expect from a tabloid journal.
    You don't address any of the points brought up, like the fact that Classen provides no real information as to how he performed his "analysis" (which, independent of anything else, is probably enough reason to disregard his claims). Instead, you commit ad hominem yourself, complaining about how they're attacking the man's character (which is not not addressing their actual non-ad-hominem arguments against his paper) and the allegedly unprofessional mocking tone (which is also not addressing their actual non-ad-hominem arguments against his paper).

    Where is the sober and reasoned discussion about the potential dangers of products that were rushed to market with zero long-term testing for the simple reason that they haven't been around long enough for such testing to occur? Why did we go so quickly from "approved for emergency use only" to sticking needles in as many arms as possible regardless of a person's individual risk?
    What does this have to do with the specific claim that Classen was making? Even if one accepts that the claim that vaccines are really dangerous, it doesn't mean the claim of Classen is of merit. To take an extreme example, smoking is obviously really bad for your health, but it doesn't mean that I should take seriously the claim that smoking can cause me to develop congenital heart disease.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post


      J. Bart Classen
      John Barthelow Classen is an anti-vaccine advocate who has published research falsely linking vaccines to diabetes, Alzheimer's, and other diseases.
      https://www.politifact.com/personali...-bart-classen/


      John Barthelow Classen is an American immunologist and anti-vaccinationist. He received his M.D. from the University of Maryland, Baltimore in 1988, his M.B.A. from Columbia University in 1992 and obtained his medical license in October 1997.[1][2] He is best known for publishing research concluding that vaccines, in particular the Hib vaccine, cause insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus,[3] a hypothesis he proposed based on experiments he conducted on mice in 1996.[4] His views are disputed and considered unverified.

      A widely-reposted 2021 Facebook post claiming that the mRNA vaccines against COVID-19 could cause prion diseases was based on a paper by Classen. The paper was published in Microbiology and Infectious Diseases, whose publisher, Scivision Publishers, is included in Beall's list of publishers of predatory journals. Vincent Racaniello, professor of microbiology and immunology at Columbia University, described the claim as "completely wrong".[5][6][7]
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Bart_Classen
      It short-circuits any reasoned discussion by calling someone an anti-vaxxer without them having stated that they are against all vaccines.

      The question to ask is whether the studies/analyses have merit. This prion paper appears to lack sufficient detail to accept what he has said here.

      As to the politifact and other fact checker websites, those tend to be funded by similar groups of people like Gates. Gates, for example, funds much of the Pharma, university research, and advocacy groups. Really, the fact checkers are as untrustworthy as wikipedia for any controversial topics. (Gates also contributed money to the Imperial College London, where the flubbed up Ferguson report came from.)

      We can really appreciate the depth of information the note[5] gave:
      It’s also worth noting that the FDA’s Emergency Use Authorization (EAU) memo for both the Moderna vaccine and the Pfizer vaccine make no mention of prion disease. Furthermore, a spokesperson from Pfizer also told The Dispatch Fact Check via email that “[T]here is no evidence to suggest the vaccine causes prion disease.”
      While it is possibly that “[T]here is no evidence to suggest the vaccine causes prion disease," this is given before there are any long term studies. This claim is like saying on Jan 1, "it has not rained all year." The point is meaningless. It comes from a biased source too. This helps show the quality of work the fact checker is doing.
      Last edited by mikewhitney; 04-12-2021, 10:16 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        And now, ironically, you resort to attacking my character instead of defending the sources you referenced.
        Just pointed out a fact. That it felt like an attack means you realize that what you do isn't right

        Comment


        • CDC and FDA "pausing" J&J vax due to "rare" reports of clotting disorder similar to A-Z vax.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
            Before the various discussions about the clotting issues that are cropping up in the AZ and JJ vaccines reach their likely fevered pitch, I'd like to make the simple observation that any vaccine side effect that is less likely that 1/500000 is not likely to show up in any practical trial. It just would take too many participants to have a high probability of showing up.

            There are always side effects that dont show up till you begin using a vaccine on the entire population. I said that very early on as resistence to the vaccine was being expressed, and I'm saying it again here. A vaccine that kills 1 per million will have a total death toll of 330 if we vaccinate the entire country, as opposed to the already 600000 with less than 30% infected by covid19. There is always a risk / benefit assessment for any vaccine.

            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

            Comment


            • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
              Both J&J and AZ are adenovirus-based vaccines. On the one hand, a 1 in a million risk of clotting, or a 1 in 6 million chance of dying, is a lot less than the chances of dying from covid if unvaccinated before herd immunity occurs. On the other, we've got more than 10 times as many vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine without comparable negative outcomes. From the beginning, when I first started looking at them, it was apparent the mRNA vaccines simply didn't have enough ingredients to generate the adverse reactions of the other types of vaccines. They're bare bones simple.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                Just pointed out a fact. That it felt like an attack means you realize that what you do isn't right
                We can debate whether or not what you said was factual some other time, but your comment was clearly an attempt to divert attention to me rather than discuss the topic.

                Come on, Sparko, you're better than that.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                  While it is possibly that “[T]here is no evidence to suggest the vaccine causes prion disease," this is given before there are any long term studies. This claim is like saying on Jan 1, "it has not rained all year." The point is meaningless. It comes from a biased source too. This helps show the quality of work the fact checker is doing.
                  It reads suspiciously like "The companies that stand to make a lot of money from this product have assured us that it is perfectly safe."
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                    Both J&J and AZ are adenovirus-based vaccines. On the one hand, a 1 in a million risk of clotting, or a 1 in 6 million chance of dying, is a lot less than the chances of dying from covid...
                    It depends on the individual. Someone in poor health with preexisting conditions, sure, the experimental China flu vaccines may be an acceptable risk. But for people who are young and those in good health who have a near zero chance of dying from the China flu? The vaccines represent an unacceptable risk, and it is insane that they're being aggressively pushed on the general population.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                      Before the various discussions about the clotting issues that are cropping up in the AZ and JJ vaccines reach their likely fevered pitch, I'd like to make the simple observation that any vaccine side effect that is less likely that 1/500000 is not likely to show up in any practical trial. It just would take too many participants to have a high probability of showing up.

                      There are always side effects that dont show up till you begin using a vaccine on the entire population. I said that very early on as resistence to the vaccine was being expressed, and I'm saying it again here. A vaccine that kills 1 per million will have a total death toll of 330 if we vaccinate the entire country, as opposed to the already 600000 with less than 30% infected by covid19. There is always a risk / benefit assessment for any vaccine.
                      The fact that the CDC and FDA are pausing the distribution of these vaccines suggests that the risk is considerably greater than your dismissive analysis would suggest.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                        Before the various discussions about the clotting issues that are cropping up in the AZ and JJ vaccines reach their likely fevered pitch, I'd like to make the simple observation that any vaccine side effect that is less likely that 1/500000 is not likely to show up in any practical trial. It just would take too many participants to have a high probability of showing up.

                        There are always side effects that dont show up till you begin using a vaccine on the entire population. I said that very early on as resistence to the vaccine was being expressed, and I'm saying it again here. A vaccine that kills 1 per million will have a total death toll of 330 if we vaccinate the entire country, as opposed to the already 600000 with less than 30% infected by covid19. There is always a risk / benefit assessment for any vaccine.
                        there really isn't any direct evidence that the vaccine caused the blood clots either. Could just be a coincidence. They are just being cautious at this point.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          It depends on the individual. Someone in poor health with preexisting conditions, sure, the experimental China flu vaccines may be an acceptable risk. But for people who are young and those in good health who have a near zero chance of dying from the China flu? The vaccines represent an unacceptable risk, and it is insane that they're being aggressively pushed on the general population.
                          1 in 6 million is twenty times closer to zero than 251 out of 73 million ages 0-17, the lowest risk demographic.

                          2021-04-13_12-52-26.jpg





                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                            We can debate whether or not what you said was factual some other time, but your comment was clearly an attempt to divert attention to me rather than discuss the topic.

                            Come on, Sparko, you're better than that.
                            I provided responses to his "paper" - his qualifications and history are indeed relevant and not "ad hominem" - the guy is a known quack. That means his "paper" is just gobbledygook. Other experts have said it is unscientific and he has zero evidence for his claims that vaccines cause autism, diabetes, or prion disease. You can hand wave all that away if you want to. But I am not going to take the word of some antivaxxer writing a paper published in a disreputable journal.


                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                              I provided responses to his "paper" - his qualifications and history are indeed relevant and not "ad hominem" - the guy is a known quack. That means his "paper" is just gobbledygook. Other experts have said it is unscientific and he has zero evidence for his claims that vaccines cause autism, diabetes, or prion disease. You can hand wave all that away if you want to. But I am not going to take the word of some antivaxxer writing a paper published in a disreputable journal.
                              From the links you provided, substantive issues with the article included a missing methodology for his analysis of prion formation pathways, physical separation in the cell between mRNA chains the nucleus where prion formation can occur, barriers between the intramuscular tissue and central nervous system tissues where prion disease occurs, and no known cases of prion disease from previous mRNA vaccines.

                              They also point out he's a known quack whose similar hijinks had already resulted in him losing his medical license, but only after providing the substantive criticism.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                                1 in 6 million is twenty times closer to zero than 251 out of 73 million ages 0-17, the lowest risk demographic.

                                2021-04-13_12-52-26.jpg
                                This is assuming that any of the statistics we have are accurate, and we have good reason to suspect they're not.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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