Originally posted by Outis
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Pope Francis: Church may support civil unions
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Originally posted by phank View PostI had an interesting discussion with a gay guy from Illinois recently. Illinois did try to institute "civil unions" which were supposed to be separate but equal, at least as far as Illinois was concerned. Now, at that time it didn't have Federal recognition (before the DOMA case), but after the DOMA case, it STILL didn't have federal recognition. They "weren't married", don't you know? And it turned out that a whole lot of the legal aspects of marriage proved unavailable or not honored, because he "wasn't married". There was no body of law or case precedents to establish that civil unions were really marriages only not CALLED marriages. In Illinois, in actual daily practice, you were either married or you were not - and civilly united wasn't married.
So clearly, in the eyes of the state, the Pope's civil union would have to be called marriage and treated as a marriage. Presumably those "Pope-style married" would need an additional piece of paper indicating church approval, which would be meaningful only for certain church activities. I think few would bother with it.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostThrough councils or infallible statements, not the findings of small panels of curial cardinals or from the personal opinions of the Pope.
Facts don't always work like that, Spartacus. And because facts don't always work like that, even if I had a completely unassailable argument for marriage equality, you could not, or would not (the difference is immaterial) accept it.
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Originally posted by Outis View PostPrecisely. You cannot seriously contemplate something that is "outside the box." Oh, you could consider it as a hypothetical ... but always with that reserve of "The Church says it, it must be true."
Facts don't always work like that, Spartacus. And because facts don't always work like that, even if I had a completely unassailable argument for marriage equality, you could not, or would not (the difference is immaterial) accept it.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostUmm... wow. No. You really don't get what I meant.
And that communication gap goes both ways. There will be topics that you discuss that I will be unable to agree with ... or, at least, I will not be able to evaluate them with the same epistemic basis that you do.
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Originally posted by Outis View PostYeah, Spartacus ... I do. The options that you can give intellectual assent to are restricted. That's your choice, and I have no problem with that. But there will be certain topics that we will be unable to effectively communicate on.
And that communication gap goes both ways. There will be topics that you discuss that I will be unable to agree with ... or, at least, I will not be able to evaluate them with the same epistemic basis that you do.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Outis View PostIf the Church (any church) feels the need to do something over and above civil marriage, that's their business. If they feel the need to perform marriages only according to their doctrines, that is also their business. I just want them to stop trying to make secular law match their doctrine when there is no compelling state interest in excluding gays from marriage. So far, most of the challenges haven't even passed rational review standards, much less strict scrutiny.
And I suspect he's pointedly aware of the fact that Catholic women are no less likely than the population as a whole to use birth control, to get abortions, to get divorced. And that means the Catholic Church is becoming increasingly irrelevant. The Church isn't surviving its effort to prohibit what its members do anyway and regard as routine.
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Originally posted by Outis View Post
Many nations have regulated civil unions. Is it a path that the Church can understand? But up to what point?
Marriage is between a man and a woman. Secular states want to justify civil unions to regulate different situations of cohabitation, pushed by the demand to regulate economic aspects between persons, such as ensuring health care. It is about pacts of cohabitating of various natures, of which I wouldn’t know how to list the different ways. One needs to see the different cases and evaluate them in their variety.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostIt's clear that with regards to the civil unions, Francis has only described reality, and has not approved of it. However, the liberal media carries on as usual to distort and spin.
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Originally posted by phank View PostBut neither has he condemned them. He's only said they come in a wide variety, and must be evaluated case by case. It's hard to draw the impression here that he disapproves of ensuring health care. He gives the impression of being open minded, and willing to see the value of same-sex marriage so long as he can call it something different, like "regulated cohabitation pacts" or some such.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostBoy, isn't it a good thing too that I didn't claim you did?
Paprika, if you have something substantive to contribute to the discussion, feel free to contribute it. If your contributions all consist of hair-splitting, please go play your games in another thread.
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