Biden signs memorandum reversing Trump abortion access restrictions

[kccd]

A couple very simple questions, if I may.

Do you believe in the Virgin Birth?
Do you believe Jesus is the only way to Heaven?
Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and lived on this planet, was crucified, buried, and rose again?

I am not interested in theological discussions and have never explored the rest of this site, looking for such discussions.

I am not willing to have my personal beliefs be scrutinized and judged by people I have never met, especially when those people likely hold to a very fundamentalist version of Christianity that they think is the only acceptable form. And many Christian denominations have rather nuanced answers to the above questions that would likely not be acceptable here.

[rogue06]

I am a biologist, and I recognize that development is a process, and each stage has unique properties.
A fertilized egg is clearly different from a fetus which is different from a born child which is different from an adult.

We recognize those differences in how we treat each stage of development and the privileges we give to each. Thus a 10 year old child cannot vote or drive a car and is therefore not legally the same as an adult.

Finally, all fertilized eggs do not proceed through development to birth. In fact, the number that don't make it is pretty high.
Also, the presence of a unique DNA in a fertilized egg does not make it a person, just as an architect's blueprint is not the same thing as a house.

A fetus is still human life

A survey conducted by the Barna Group poll about three years ago found that just under seven out of ten Americans (69%) think that if a doctor is able to detect the heartbeat of an unborn baby, that baby should be legally protected.

00000000000000ars3.jpg

Ultrasound (a real bane to the pro-abortion side) can detect a heartbeat as early as between 5½ and 6½ weeks after conception (that would be in the first trimester) Another source says 6 to 7 weeks (still first trimester).

The same with brainwaves. We typically use being able to detect them in determining whether or not someone is alive. Electroencephalograms have been detecting brain waves as early as 6 to 6½ weeks since back in the mid-1950s and this has been confirmed multiple times since then. As Parents Magazine succinctly puts it in their series about the development of the baby at week 6 "brain waves can now be recorded."

Even if you don't accept that life begins at conception, the fact that there is both a heartbeat (between 5½ and 7 weeks) and brain activity (6 to 6½ weeks) indicates that we are talking about a human life very early on.

[rogue06]

I am not interested in theological discussions and have never explored the rest of this site, looking for such discussions.

I am not willing to have my personal beliefs be scrutinized and judged by people I have never met, especially when those people likely hold to a very fundamentalist version of Christianity that they think is the only acceptable form. And many Christian denominations have rather nuanced answers to the above questions that would likely not be acceptable here.

If you stay in Civics it really doesn't matter, but there are several areas that have restricted posting rules. The Fraternity and Sorority are divided by sex, and several areas are for Christians only, theists only and there is even one for agnostics and atheists only (we could well be the only religiously based website that offers that). The questions are primarily for that reason, and also, if you're Christian I Peter 3:15 comes up

Scripture Verse: I Peter 3:15

but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect

© Copyright Original Source

So relax, it isn't an Inquisition SpInq.gif

[Mountain Man]

There is, but in most cases it's subtle and often requires a cumulative exegetic reading of the bible.

Many liberals happily embrace the concepts of "love your neighbor" and "do unto others as you would have them do to you" but then ignore everything else in the Bible that doesn't support their agenda, such as the unambiguous condemnation of homosexuality, and passages in which the value of unborn human life is clearly described, such as Jeremiah 1:5 and Luke 1:41.

[Mountain Man]

I am not interested in theological discussions and have never explored the rest of this site, looking for such discussions.

I am not willing to have my personal beliefs be scrutinized and judged by people I have never met, especially when those people likely hold to a very fundamentalist version of Christianity that they think is the only acceptable form. And many Christian denominations have rather nuanced answers to the above questions that would likely not be acceptable here.

So that's a hard no, you don't accept the foundational tenets of Christianity.

[kccd]

A fetus is still human life

A survey conducted by the Barna Group poll about three years ago found that just under seven out of ten Americans (69%) think that if a doctor is able to detect the heartbeat of an unborn baby, that baby should be legally protected.

00000000000000ars3.jpg

Ultrasound (a real bane to the pro-abortion side) can detect a heartbeat as early as between 5½ and 6½ weeks after conception (that would be in the first trimester) Another source says 6 to 7 weeks (still first trimester).

The same with brainwaves. We typically use being able to detect them in determining whether or not someone is alive. Electroencephalograms have been detecting brain waves as early as 6 to 6½ weeks since back in the mid-1950s and this has been confirmed multiple times since then. As Parents Magazine succinctly puts it in their series about the development of the baby at week 6 "brain waves can now be recorded."

Even if you don't accept that life begins at conception, the fact that there is both a heartbeat (between 5½ and 7 weeks) and brain activity (6 to 6½ weeks) indicates that we are talking about a human life very early on.

As a biologist I don't see a beating heart as a particularly important milestone.
Embryonic cells can be maintained in the lab in a petri dish. As the cells grow and divide they can differentiate into specialized cells, and the cell culture can develop structures like hair. Cardiac cells can also develop, and they clump together to form a lump that begins beating, because that is what those cells are programed to do. Quite something to see under the microscope.

A beating heart actually develops by about 21 days although the rest of the circulatory system takes a bit longer. Any attempt to block abortion after the development of a beating heart would effectively ban all abortions as many women do not know they are pregnant by 21 days.

I should also point out another major difference between fetal life and a born baby. The circulatory system is extremely different. For one thing there is the umbilical cord attachment to the mother, and for another, the blood flow in the fetus completely bypasses the lungs, and this undergoes a major change right after birth.

[kccd]

If you stay in Civics it really doesn't matter, but there are several areas that have restricted posting rules. The Fraternity and Sorority are divided by sex, and several areas are for Christians only, theists only and there is even one for agnostics and atheists only (we could well be the only religiously based website that offers that). The questions are primarily for that reason, and also, if you're Christian I Peter 3:15 comes up

Scripture Verse: I Peter 3:15

but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect

© Copyright Original Source

So relax, it isn't an Inquisition SpInq.gif

As I said, I am not interested in other areas of this site. The only time I did post on another location was when a thread started here was moved, but I was still able to read it and add a comment.

[kccd]

Many liberals happily embrace the concepts of "love your neighbor" and "do unto others as you would have them do to you" but then ignore everything else in the Bible that doesn't support their agenda, such as the unambiguous condemnation of homosexuality, and passages in which the value of unborn human life is clearly described, such as Jeremiah 1:5 and Luke 1:41.

I think people will always find what they are looking for in the bible.

[Cow Poke]

I am not interested in theological discussions and have never explored the rest of this site, looking for such discussions.

I am not willing to have my personal beliefs be scrutinized and judged by people I have never met, especially when those people likely hold to a very fundamentalist version of Christianity that they think is the only acceptable form. And many Christian denominations have rather nuanced answers to the above questions that would likely not be acceptable here.

Wow -- I have never met a Christian who wasn't willing to answer those very basic questions, so - in a way, I guess I got my answer.

And, for the record, you're way off about me - I'm a huge believer in unity in the essentials, liberty in the non-essentials, and charity in all else.

[kccd]

So that's a hard no, you don't accept the foundational tenets of Christianity.

That is not remotely what I said.

[Cow Poke]

So that's a hard no, you don't accept the foundational tenets of Christianity.

And I think I made them as basic and limited in scope as I could - only a representative sample of the essentials.

[Cow Poke]

....Ultrasound (a real bane to the pro-abortion side) can detect a heartbeat as early as between 5½ and 6½ weeks after conception (that would be in the first trimester) Another source says 6 to 7 weeks (still first trimester)....

THIS! Years ago we noticed how valuable it was to have our 'clients' come back from a scheduled ultrasound that several doctors got together and purchased an ultrasound machine for our clinic to have in-house. It was absolutely a game changer!

[kccd]

Wow -- I have never met a Christian who wasn't willing to answer those very basic questions, so - in a way, I guess I got my answer.

And, for the record, you're way off about me - I'm a huge believer in unity in the essentials, liberty in the non-essentials, and charity in all else.

No. There are nuances that can affect what you consider the essentials. For example, there are serious Biblical scholars and linguists who say that the concept of the virgin birth is the result of a mistranslation of some words in the bible. I understand that you would reject the authority of such scholars, but I think those claims should be addressed and considered. This is what I mean by nuance.

And what you mean is that if someone does not accept without reservation your list of essentials, they are not Christian? In that case, Christianity would be a very small religion.

[Cow Poke]

I think people will always find what they are looking for in the bible.

There's actually a lot of truth in that.

Conversely, people will ignore the parts they don't like. They'll see Jesus as a big loveable kind sweet man who would NEVER criticize a homosexual couple, for example, because he didn't condemn the "woman caught in adultery". They omit the part where He tells her "go and sin no more".

[kccd]

THIS! Years ago we noticed how valuable it was to have our 'clients' come back from a scheduled ultrasound that several doctors got together and purchased an ultrasound machine for our clinic to have in-house. It was absolutely a game changer!

Ultrasounds were introduced into prenatal care as a diagnostic tool to help doctors follow fetal development and detect abnormalities. I mentioned helping someone get an abortion - 3 ultrasounds spaced over weeks found the fetus was not growing so the doctor suggested genetic testing. The tests revealed massive chromosomal abnormalities, completely incompatible with life or even completion of the pregnancy, so the abortion was absolutely warranted. Without the ultrasound technology, the defects would not have been found resulting in a possibly dangerous miscarriage later in the pregnancy.

The anti-abortion crowd misuses this technology as a tool to try to convince women not to abort. In at least two states, Arizona and Oklahoma, Republicans actually tried to pass laws that would have absolved providers if they failed to notify patients of ultrasound detected fetal abnormalities!