Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Biden signs memorandum reversing Trump abortion access restrictions

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    To me, the argument "it's not a person" is very weak. Once conception occurs a new human life has begun, even if it ISN'T a person (which I disagree) the qualifier is "yet" - when you snuff out that life you are cutting short an entire lifetime. If you didn' t kill it, it would continue to grow, become a child, then a teenager, and finally an adult, might get married, have children of their own, make a mark on the world for good or bad. All that is gone when you kill that "non-person" - not only their life but all of the potential lives that might have come from him/her. Possibly thousands or millions.

    And before someone argues "well contraception does the same thing" - no it doesn't. There is no new human being at that point, and might never have been even without the contraception. But after conception, you can't say that. There IS a new life at that point who WILL grow into a new person if you don't kill him/her first. To me, it is just as bad as if you killed an infant or a 5 year old. You are destroying an entire lifetime for that being.


    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

      I meant using the word "conceivably" -- since so often we will say that life begins at conception.

      Except for the wise old Jewish Rabbi who cays that life begins when the kids move away and the dog dies.




      ohhhhh...ahahaha...that is funny.
      P1) If , then I win.

      P2)

      C) I win.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
        Conceivably, there's a 40-day window in which a Christian could defend abortion, but it's extremely tenuous and highly nuanced. It'd be like walking on a tight rope on stilts. It would come no where near supporting abortion carte blanche. Abortion for when the mother is in danger is probably easier for a Christian though that's not why most abortion are requested.
        The Biblical argument you reference depends on a distortion of a single passage and requires one to ignore the entire rest of scripture.
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

          The Biblical argument you reference depends on a distortion of a single passage and requires one to ignore the entire rest of scripture.
          I'm including the Aristotelianism that supports Christian metaphysics. I consider Thomism, which is not necessarily Roman Catholic, to be peak Christianity as paradigm.
          P1) If , then I win.

          P2)

          C) I win.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Diogenes View Post
            I'm including the Aristotelianism that supports Christian metaphysics. I consider Thomism, which is not necessarily Roman Catholic, to be peak Christianity as paradigm.
            I'm still marveling at the jargon!

            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

              I'm still marveling at the jargon!
              Unlike probably most of my fellow non-Christians, I have a high view of Christianity in that I take it's philosophical development into consideration. I also have a high view of Judaism in that I consider the extensive Rabbinic Tradition. My primary source for Judaism as a whole would like be Maimonides. I think Christianity is more liberal than it's given credit but it's not as liberal as some want to make it. Islam has it's various schools of thought but I certainly consider it by far the most restrictive.
              P1) If , then I win.

              P2)

              C) I win.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post


                I am asking this as one of the site owners. Please explain what you believe about Christ and why you call yourself a Christian.
                kccd


                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Diogenes View Post

                  Unlike probably most of my fellow non-Christians, I have a high view of Christianity in that I take it's philosophical development into consideration. I also have a high view of Judaism in that I consider the extensive Rabbinic Tradition. My primary source for Judaism as a whole would like be Maimonides. I think Christianity is more liberal than it's given credit but it's not as liberal as some want to make it. Islam has it's various schools of thought but I certainly consider it by far the most restrictive.
                  Old Rambam made a heck of a lot of sense.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    To me, the argument "it's not a person" is very weak. Once conception occurs a new human life has begun, even if it ISN'T a person (which I disagree) the qualifier is "yet" - when you snuff out that life you are cutting short an entire lifetime. If you didn' t kill it, it would continue to grow, become a child, then a teenager, and finally an adult, might get married, have children of their own, make a mark on the world for good or bad. All that is gone when you kill that "non-person" - not only their life but all of the potential lives that might have come from him/her. Possibly thousands or millions.

                    And before someone argues "well contraception does the same thing" - no it doesn't. There is no new human being at that point, and might never have been even without the contraception. But after conception, you can't say that. There IS a new life at that point who WILL grow into a new person if you don't kill him/her first. To me, it is just as bad as if you killed an infant or a 5 year old. You are destroying an entire lifetime for that being.
                    I am a biologist, and I recognize that development is a process, and each stage has unique properties.
                    A fertilized egg is clearly different from a fetus which is different from a born child which is different from an adult.

                    We recognize those differences in how we treat each stage of development and the privileges we give to each. Thus a 10 year old child cannot vote or drive a car and is therefore not legally the same as an adult.

                    Finally, all fertilized eggs do not proceed through development to birth. In fact, the number that don't make it is pretty high.
                    Also, the presence of a unique DNA in a fertilized egg does not make it a person, just as an architect's blueprint is not the same thing as a house.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                      This is an odd request, and I have seen nothing like this in the short time I have been posting here.

                      I also find it especially odd that the tipping point seems to be my position on abortion. Abortion is certainly an important issue for certain fundamentalist Christians, but this is not the case for many mainline Christian churches, including my own, which has members on both sides of this issue.

                      FYI, I have been associated with Christian churches my whole life, and this includes 8 years of schooling in church-run schools. I am currently a longtime and very active member of a mainline Christian church (35+ years) in which I am highly involved. I have often (pre-pandemic) hosted church groups at my house. We now meet by zoom, including Sunday services and coffee hour. I support the church financially.

                      I am not inclined to answer questions about my personal beliefs on religious doctrines or I would be participating in those particular forums. I will only say that I give precedence to the teachings of Christ (what he said, and what what he did not bother talking about, like abortion or homosexuality) versus anything in the OT or in the NT outside the Gospels.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by kccd View Post

                        This is an odd request, and I have seen nothing like this in the short time I have been posting here.

                        I also find it especially odd that the tipping point seems to be my position on abortion. Abortion is certainly an important issue for certain fundamentalist Christians, but this is not the case for many mainline Christian churches, including my own, which has members on both sides of this issue.

                        FYI, I have been associated with Christian churches my whole life, and this includes 8 years of schooling in church-run schools. I am currently a longtime and very active member of a mainline Christian church (35+ years) in which I am highly involved. I have often (pre-pandemic) hosted church groups at my house. We now meet by zoom, including Sunday services and coffee hour. I support the church financially.

                        I am not inclined to answer questions about my personal beliefs on religious doctrines or I would be participating in those particular forums. I will only say that I give precedence to the teachings of Christ (what he said, and what what he did not bother talking about, like abortion or homosexuality) versus anything in the OT or in the NT outside the Gospels.
                        It's probably because you're so adamant about your political views from a leftist perspective, it makes it pretty suspect. Even Ox, who's obviously left leaning, is not anywhere near as definitive about the issue of abortion.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by kccd View Post

                          I am a biologist, and I recognize that development is a process, and each stage has unique properties.
                          A fertilized egg is clearly different from a fetus which is different from a born child which is different from an adult.

                          We recognize those differences in how we treat each stage of development and the privileges we give to each. Thus a 10 year old child cannot vote or drive a car and is therefore not legally the same as an adult.

                          Finally, all fertilized eggs do not proceed through development to birth. In fact, the number that don't make it is pretty high.
                          Also, the presence of a unique DNA in a fertilized egg does not make it a person, just as an architect's blueprint is not the same thing as a house.
                          Thanks for completely ignoring everything I said. Also, the fact that spontaneous miscarriages can occur no more excuses abortion than the fact that many children die of disease before reaching adulthood would excuse infanticide.

                          If you are a biologist, you are not a very good one. A fertilized egg is a new human being. It is not "part of the mother" - it is a distinct organism with it's own DNA and life. That's pretty much Biology 101. And "person" is a legal term, not a scientific one.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by kccd View Post

                            This is an odd request, and I have seen nothing like this in the short time I have been posting here.

                            I also find it especially odd that the tipping point seems to be my position on abortion. Abortion is certainly an important issue for certain fundamentalist Christians, but this is not the case for many mainline Christian churches, including my own, which has members on both sides of this issue.

                            FYI, I have been associated with Christian churches my whole life, and this includes 8 years of schooling in church-run schools. I am currently a longtime and very active member of a mainline Christian church (35+ years) in which I am highly involved. I have often (pre-pandemic) hosted church groups at my house. We now meet by zoom, including Sunday services and coffee hour. I support the church financially.

                            I am not inclined to answer questions about my personal beliefs on religious doctrines or I would be participating in those particular forums. I will only say that I give precedence to the teachings of Christ (what he said, and what what he did not bother talking about, like abortion or homosexuality) versus anything in the OT or in the NT outside the Gospels.
                            Being "associated" with a Christian church doesn't make you a Christian any more than living in a garage makes you a car.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by seanD View Post

                              It's probably because you're so adamant about your political views from a leftist perspective, it makes it pretty suspect. Even Ox, who's obviously left leaning, is not anywhere near as definitive about the issue of abortion.
                              Ox?

                              Yes I tend to agree with most left wing policies because I see that those policies tend to work for the average American.

                              As for abortion, I am female so I have skin in the game, and although I never had an abortion, I have driven someone in crisis to an abortion clinic. She was and still is extremely relieved and grateful that she could do this, after her doctor's Catholic hospital refused to help.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by kccd View Post

                                Ox?

                                Yes I tend to agree with most left wing policies because I see that those policies tend to work for the average American.

                                As for abortion, I am female so I have skin in the game, and although I never had an abortion, I have driven someone in crisis to an abortion clinic. She was and still is extremely relieved and grateful that she could do this, after her doctor's Catholic hospital refused to help.
                                Just out of curiosity, and I probably won't push the issue, what's your opinion about minority fetuses getting terminated 4 to 1 versus white fetuses? Good or bad?

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                155 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                399 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                114 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                198 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                373 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X