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The Insurrection Lie II: False Reports ...Continue To Unravel.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
And, as I'm getting tired of explaining, that is not proof that he was not struck by a fire extinguisher, since it might not cause physical trauma. (Yes, that would mean he was not killed by the fire extinguisher, but the question at hand is whether anyone lied in saying that he was struck by one.)
And since you have two different news outlets reporting that multiple sources in the police department said that Sicknick was struck by a fire extinguisher, the most likely explanation seems to be that he was actually struck by one, even if he wasn't killed by being struck by one.
Granted, the next most likely would be that someone made it up so that he could be said to have died in the line of duty, but it doesn't seem like they would have needed to be so specific. And if you're going to accuse someone of lying, I think you would need more than that.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Given that he was 42 years old, in the absence of evidence that he had any risk factors for stroke, I would think that injury would be more likely. If nothing else, inhaling pepper spray can cause an increase in blood pressure that can lead to a stroke, and Sicknick told his brother that he had been hit by bear spray.
Boy it sure would be nice if someone in the MSM was even just a little bit interested in what actually took place and requested a copy of the medical examiner's report -- or filed a suit demanding it be released. You know, like they do in every other case where there is conflicting versions of what took place. But to date, it doesn't seem like anybody is interested.
I guess they're too busy asking old Joe about playing video games or his dogs.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostI didn't say you accused anyone of lying. But this thread was started with the claim that it was a lie to say that Sicknick died because he was hit with a fire extinguisher, or that he died in the line of duty. I've been given enough reason to question whether he was hit with a fire extinguisher, or that he died in the line of duty, but not really enough to say that anyone lied about it.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
- 1 like
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
And the question remains, did anyone who reported that the insurrectionists killed Sicknick by striking him in the head with a fire extinguisher know that that wasn't true?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostNo - a BETTER question is WHY did they make such statements? Are they that incredibly bad journalists that don't check facts before making such serious allegations?
Are they too biased to do some simple FACT CHECKING? (on that, I would say a resounding "you bet your bippy")
Of course, if it had been widely debunked before they said it, then that would be different.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Given that he was 42 years old, in the absence of evidence that he had any risk factors for stroke, I would think that injury would be more likely. If nothing else, inhaling pepper spray can cause an increase in blood pressure that can lead to a stroke, and Sicknick told his brother that he had been hit by bear spray.
https://www.sutterhealth.org/health/...age-forty-five
We think of stroke as something that happens to older people. But every year, about 70,000 Americans under age 45 have strokes.
“About 10 to 15 percent of strokes occur in children and adults under age 45, and that number is rising,” says David Tong, M.D., medical director of the Stroke Care Center at California Pacific Medical Center.
What Causes Stroke in Younger People?
Some of the risk factors for stroke in younger adults are different than those found in older adults, but many are the same—smoking, heavy drinking, diabetes, high blood pressure and high cholesterol. Bad health habits are not the only causes of strokes in young people, however. Other conditions can bring about strokes before age 45, including several that are inherited.
“Even when inherited conditions raise your chances of having a stroke, there may be actions you can take to reduce your risk,” Dr. Tong says.
Blood Disorders
Some people develop or inherit conditions that cause blood to clot (coagulate) more easily, which can increase the risk of an ischemic stroke.
“Coagulation problems can be inherited, and some are detectable with a blood test,” Dr. Tong says. “So if you or a close relative has developed blood clots, talk to your doctor about possible tests and treatments.”
Heart Conditions
Some people are born with or develop heart conditions that can cause or allow blood clots in the heart to travel to the brain.
A small percentage of strokes in young adults are caused by a very common condition called patent foramen ovale. About 25 percent of people have PFO, which develops when a hole between the heart's chambers doesn’t close during the first few months after birth. Doctors can diagnose PFO with a simple echocardiogram. However, because the vast majority of people with PFO never have a problem, doctors seldom treat it unless you have symptoms.
“There are other heart conditions that occasionally cause strokes,” Dr. Tong says, “and doctors can diagnose many of them easily and safely with echocardiography or other noninvasive tests.”
Aneurysms
Aneurysms form when blood vessel walls weaken and form bubbles that can rupture, causing hemorrhagic strokes. Some people are born with blood vessel malformations. Research shows that there are also genes and inherited conditions that increase risk. Aneurysms can occur at any age, but ruptured aneurysms most commonly affect people between ages 30 and 60.
“Inheritance plays a more-than-significant role in aneurysm formation,” Dr. Tong says. “And smoking dramatically increases that risk.”
Talk to your doctor if a parent, brother or sister has experienced an aneurysm. There are tests and treatments available that can reduce your chances of experiencing a ruptured aneurysm.
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostI didn't say you accused anyone of lying. But this thread was started with the claim that it was a lie to say that Sicknick died because he was hit with a fire extinguisher, or that he died in the line of duty. I've been given enough reason to question whether he was hit with a fire extinguisher, or that he died in the line of duty, but not really enough to say that anyone lied about it.
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostIf journalists were presenting it as news, rather than mentioning in passing what had already been widely reported,
then I would expect them to have checked their facts. But no, I don't expect journalists (much less politicians) to fact check everything they say.
Of course, if it had been widely debunked before they said it, then that would be different.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe ones who unquestionably lied are the House Managers by presenting it as an indisputable fact long after doubts had arisen, in direct violation of what they are required to do - namely acknowledge that the claim is not proven. As I've noted, that sort of behavior typically results in cases getting overturned and even prosecutors forced to step down and often facing disbarmentThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostOh. Well if that's the case, then yeah, there doesn't appear to be any truthfulness behind the people rumormongering that he was hit by a fire extinguisher.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
So, in your world, it's perfectly acceptable for Journalists - and politicians - to declare something as fact simply because they don't know for sure it's not fact?
Think how DUMB that is ..... "yes, Congressman Jones raped that poor young woman..... um... at least we don't know that he DIDN'T, but that's the talk around the water cooler".
Seriously --- are you a grown adult? Not being facetious at all --- you reason like a child.
From what I've seen, some news outlets reported what they were told by sources in the police department, which was that Sicknick died after being struck by a fire extinguisher. I have no reason to believe that the sources, or the news outlets, lied. I also have no reason to believe that those news outlets did anything improper in reporting what they were told.
Somewhere along the way, someone took that story and modified it to say that Sicknick was killed by being struck with a fire extinguisher. That wasn't necessarily a lie, but it definitely was poor reporting. If I knew who that was, I would consider them untrustworthy as a news source. I wouldn't necessarily think they were part of a conspiracy.
The House managers made a claim that Sicknick was killed by being struck by a fire extinguisher. They also gave their source for the claim, which was the NYT article that merely stated that he died after being struck by a fire extinguisher. If they had known that the fire extinguisher was not likely the cause of death, then what they did would have been unconscionable. But I have no reason to believe they thought they were making a false claim, especially since what they claimed was being widely reported at the time.
Some would say that the House managers had a duty to be certain that everything they said was true. I disagree. If it was a FISA court, that would be the case, since the accused would not have anyone representing him. But the president had lawyers who were free to double-check and challenge anything the House managers said. The only real obligation was to not put forward anything that they knew was false, even if it was a court of law rather than an impeachment.
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostYou are misconstruing what I've said, which is kind of childish in itself.
From what I've seen, some news outlets reported what they were told by sources in the police department, which was that Sicknick died after being struck by a fire extinguisher. I have no reason to believe that the sources, or the news outlets, lied. I also have no reason to believe that those news outlets did anything improper in reporting what they were told.
Somewhere along the way, someone took that story and modified it to say that Sicknick was killed by being struck with a fire extinguisher. That wasn't necessarily a lie,
but it definitely was poor reporting. If I knew who that was, I would consider them untrustworthy as a news source. I wouldn't necessarily think they were part of a conspiracy.
The House managers made a claim that Sicknick was killed by being struck by a fire extinguisher.
They also gave their source for the claim, which was the NYT article that merely stated that he died after being struck by a fire extinguisher. If they had known that the fire extinguisher was not likely the cause of death, then what they did would have been unconscionable. But I have no reason to believe they thought they were making a false claim, especially since what they claimed was being widely reported at the time.
Some would say that the House managers had a duty to be certain that everything they said was true. I disagree. If it was a FISA court, that would be the case, since the accused would not have anyone representing him. But the president had lawyers who were free to double-check and challenge anything the House managers said. The only real obligation was to not put forward anything that they knew was false, even if it was a court of law rather than an impeachment.
If the House Managers had been interested in the TRUTH, they would not have been so gung-ho in a rush to bring a dishonest emotional hysterical case before the Senate.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostIt's easy to say it's dumb, a little harder to actually point out flaws.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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