Dems push Biden to cancel $50,000 in student loan debt

[Cow Poke]

It's understandable there's a tension between preventing Covid spread by keeping kids at home, and having the kids go to school to get a good education.

No, the science says it's worse for kids not to be in school. The Liberals always want to claim to follow the science except where special interests cause them to ignore it. I just posted a new thread on the suicides associated with the pandemic, particularly among students.

It's not inherently obvious that teachers unions would be the reason that the US is falling behind. Plenty of other factors play a role in educational outcomes, e.g. socioeconomics, nutrition, home environment, parental education levels, funding, class size, curriculum, teaching styles, testing styles, and possibly genetics. Plenty of other countries have teachers unions (e.g. my own).

When I google the topic, about half of the links I get say that the US isn't doing badly on education, and the other half say it is doing badly and then clarify that they mean it's about in the middle of the pack of developed countries and offer no explanations or reasons why they think it's not doing better.

There's been concern in my own country recently that educational outcomes are dropping, but identifying why isn't easy. I tend to believe it's due to a bunch of changes to the system made about 20 years ago that I didn't like... but I sure can't prove it, and I'm aware education is complicated and just because I don't happen to like something doesn't mean that that thing is actually to blame with regard to how outcomes have changed. You could blame teachers unions here if you liked for that, but given we've had teachers unions for 70 years and educational outcomes have gotten worse in the last decade or so, it doesn't seem very likely that teachers unions were the cause.

American public school education hasn't suddenly taken a nosedive.

Teachers unions do not represent students in any way -- they are a political organization to protect their union dues payers, not students, just like police unions keep bad cops from being fired.

Teachers Unions: Top Contributors to Federal Candidates, Parties, and Outside Groups

Why don't they spend some of those millions on education instead of buying politicians?

Anyway, this thread is about student loans - how bout let's take this derail back to the threads that are already dealing with this issue?

[Sparko]

That ignores the fact that bankruptcies pay back creditors pennies on the dollar. Debts are almost entirely discharged in most cases, since personal and company assets don’t approach near the amount owed, meaning companies (like the contractors Donald Trump Inc. hired to build crappy casinos) have to absorb those losses.

Also, businesses and people gain back credit to start process all over again. See Trump, currently in bankruptcy 6 and pays $750 in federal income tax

There’s a reason Trump said he played with tax and bankruptcy laws.

That's still different that the government taxing you and me to pay for someone else's "loan forgiveness" - Do you think the government will just tell the colleges, "tough luck!" and make them responsible for recouping their own loss? They already HAVE the money from the loan, the loan was made by the government, meaning that the government has to "recoup" the losses, by charging more taxes, or increasing the national debt, either way it raises our taxes.

In bankruptcy, the company has the choice to write off their loss or increase their prices, in which case their customers can just go somewhere else.

[rogue06]

My favourite US political commentator (Sam Seder on The Majority Report), who I'm obviously far more inclined to believe than you, thinks Teachers Unions are great and do heaps to improve education quality and outcomes, and given the number of different experts he's interviewed on his show on the subject, I tend to believe he knows a lot about the subject.

So it's not just a he-says you-say, what actual information would you point to, to convince me on the subject?


With regard to my post, I was more talking about 'number of years' in formal education. Quality of education is a bit hard to measure and can be pretty subjective, but 'number of years' spent is a fairly simple cross-country measure that's easy to look at. The data certainly shows that more years spent in formal education on average is tied to better outcomes for countries. I presume that 'better' education also has better outcomes, but it's hard to know what counts as 'better'.

Teacher's unions are pretty upfront with the fact that they aren't there to improve education but rather to make union member's jobs easier.

[rogue06]

Student loan forgiveness...

Although Trump...

Bankruptcy...

There’s a reason Trump

This isn't about Trump...

Trump declared...

Starting to notice a pattern here.

[whag]

Student loan forgiveness...

Bankruptcy...

This isn't about Trump...

Starting to notice a pattern here.

Yes, the pattern of his bankruptcies is breathtaking.

[Cow Poke]

Yes, the pattern of his bankruptcies is breathtaking.

Take it to another thread, please, or start your own.

[rogue06]

No, the science says it's worse for kids not to be in school. The Liberals always want to claim to follow the science except where special interests cause them to ignore it. I just posted a new thread on the suicides associated with the pandemic, particularly among students.


American public school education hasn't suddenly taken a nosedive.

Teachers unions do not represent students in any way -- they are a political organization to protect their union dues payers, not students, just like police unions keep bad cops from being fired.

Teachers Unions: Top Contributors to Federal Candidates, Parties, and Outside Groups

Why don't they spend some of those millions on education instead of buying politicians?

Anyway, this thread is about student loans - how bout let's take this derail back to the threads that are already dealing with this issue?

A quote attributed to Albert Shanker, president of the United Federation of Teachers and then the American Federation of Teachers) for well over 30 years, says it all

When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I'll start representing the interests of school children

[Cow Poke]

A quote attributed to Albert Shanker, president of the United Federation of Teachers and then the American Federation of Teachers) for well over 30 years, says it all

When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I'll start representing the interests of school children

EGGzackly!!!

[Starlight]

A quote attributed to Albert Shanker, president of the United Federation of Teachers and then the American Federation of Teachers) for well over 30 years, says it all

When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I'll start representing the interests of school children

Seems that the evidence suggests he never said it. People who have put huge effort into trying to track down the origins of that oft-repeated alleged-quote haven't been able to find the original and have concluded it's a misquote about him complaining about people who opposed teachers unions saying that (i.e. it's a view held by others that he's complaining about and critiquing).

It's like quoting a Christian as saying God doesn't exist after they complain that atheists say God doesn't exist.

Teacher's unions are pretty upfront with the fact that they aren't there to improve education but rather to make union member's jobs easier.

Albert Shanker was a major figure in education reform movements in the 80s and 90s, so the falsehood of your statement is shown by the very person you cite above.