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Dems push Biden to cancel $50,000 in student loan debt

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    Does that count as some sort of meta-whataboutism on your part, if you complain about the whataboutism of someone who complained about your whataboutism?


    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment





    • Yup

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        That's how all bankruptcy works:

        https://www.investopedia.com/articles/01/120501.asp

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busine...ed%20creditors).

        Although Trump has never filed for personal bankruptcy, hotels and casino businesses of his have declared bankruptcy[52] six times between 1991 and 2009 due to its inability to meet required payments and to re-negotiate debt with banks, owners of stock and bonds and various small businesses (unsecured creditors).[53][54] Because the businesses used Chapter 11 bankruptcy, they were allowed to operate while negotiations proceeded. Trump was quoted by Newsweek in 2011 saying, "I do play with the bankruptcy laws—they're very good for me."[55][56]


        The "party of personal responsibility" still worships man who plays with tax and bankruptcy laws.


        Comment


        • The whole nation benefits when its citizens are more educated. There's really clear data showing countries do better the more years of formal education their citizens have on average. It's also been a key finding from the many and various attempts to help 3rd world nations develop, that the key part is education.

          So it's obviously in the interests of nations to have their citizens be more educated and to make that education free to get (e.g. as Germany does), or even to pay them to get it (e.g. as Sweden does).

          Bear in mind that the direct cost to the government of imprisoning a person for a year, tends to be higher than giving them the best scholarship to the most prestigious university, not to mention the loss of taxes from that person if they would have been earning money, not to mention the damage not-done by the crimes not-committed. If paying for some education prevents crimes and years in prison, it's money saved as far as the government's finances are concerned.

          e.g. The impacts of education on crime, health and mortality, and civic participation:
          Around the world, incarceration and conviction rates are high among the least educated. A number of recent studies find that this correlation reflects a causal relationship. For example, Lochner and Moretti (2004) estimate that increasing high school graduation rates by one percentage point in 1990 would have resulted in nearly 100,000 fewer crimes in the US, providing an annual social benefit valued at more than $2 billion (or $3,000 per additional male graduate). Notably, our estimates suggest that increases in education would reduce both violent and property crimes. In the UK, Machin et al (2011) estimate the social savings from crime reduction associated with increasing the population of individuals with an education qualification. Accounting only for benefits from property crime reduction, their estimates suggest a savings of over £10,000 per additional student qualification.

          ...Deming (2009) estimates that reductions in arrests associated with offering better quality school options to a high-risk youth produces a roughly $16,000 social savings to victims over the next seven years. Because better schools are also likely to have reduced crimes that never led to an arrest, total victimisation savings may be 3-5 times higher.

          ...estimates suggest that Perry Preschool produced a social benefit from crime reduction of roughly $150,000 per child
          Last edited by Starlight; 02-28-2021, 02:34 AM.
          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

          Comment


          • Originally posted by whag View Post
            That's how all bankruptcy works...
            Wrong. Unlike the "debt forgiveness" nonsense being proposed by idiot liberals, bankruptcy doesn't simply dump your responsibility on someone else with no consequences to yourself. If it's a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, you will be required to sell off your possessions in order to pay back as much of your debt as possible. If it's a Chapter 13 filing, then you and your creditors work out a payment plan over a period of years that you are legally required to follow. In either case, it wrecks your credit score making it difficult if not impossible to take out new loans, open a bank account, or even rent an apartment.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

              Wrong. Unlike the "debt forgiveness" nonsense being proposed by idiot liberals, bankruptcy doesn't simply dump your responsibility on someone else with no consequences to yourself. If it's a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, you will be required to sell off your possessions in order to pay back as much of your debt as possible. If it's a Chapter 13 filing, then you and your creditors work out a payment plan over a period of years that you are legally required to follow. In either case, it wrecks your credit score making it difficult if not impossible to take out new loans, open a bank account, or even rent an apartment.
              That ignores the fact that bankruptcies pay back creditors pennies on the dollar. Debts are almost entirely discharged in most cases, since personal and company assets don’t approach near the amount owed, meaning companies (like the contractors Donald Trump Inc. hired to build crappy casinos) have to absorb those losses.

              Also, businesses and people gain back credit to start process all over again. See Trump, currently in bankruptcy 6 and pays $750 in federal income tax

              There’s a reason Trump said he played with tax and bankruptcy laws.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by whag View Post

                That ignores the fact that bankruptcies pay back creditors pennies on the dollar. Debts are almost entirely discharged in most cases, since personal and company assets don’t approach near the amount owed, meaning companies (like the contractors Donald Trump Inc. hired to build crappy casinos) have to absorb those losses.

                Also, businesses and people gain back credit to start process all over again. See Trump, currently in bankruptcy 6 and pays $750 in federal income tax

                There’s a reason Trump said he played with tax and bankruptcy laws.
                This has nothing to do with President Trump, so try setting your TDS aside.

                The fact is that declaring bankruptcy is a very costly option for the individual, and that's how it should be. It should not be easy to rack up debt and then simply walk away from it without any consequences, which is exactly what this "debt forgiveness" nonsense proposes.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  This has nothing to do with President Trump, so try setting your TDS aside.

                  The fact is that declaring bankruptcy is a very costly option for the individual, and that's how it should be. It should not be easy to rack up debt and then simply walk away from it without any consequences, which is exactly what this "debt forgiveness" nonsense proposes.
                  Trump declared bankruptcy 6 times. Biden has declared it how none and is against student loan forgiveness, which has been hand waved in this thread by BDS sufferers.

                  Both figures are relevant to the discussion, since the implication is that one is the party of personal responsibility while the other is profligate. Meanwhile, Trump and Biden are as crony capitalist as they come.

                  Trump said he plays with tax and bankruptcy laws, which you ignore being enamored with him for supposedly being anti-establishment.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by whag View Post
                    Trump
                    afb021921dAPR20210219054514.jpg

                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      The whole nation benefits when its citizens are more educated. ....
                      Then we should start with scrapping the present US educations system that's run by UNIONS who care far more about their dues paying members than they do children actually receiving a good education.

                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Then we should start with scrapping the present US educations system that's run by UNIONS who care far more about their dues paying members than they do children actually receiving a good education.
                        My favourite US political commentator (Sam Seder on The Majority Report), who I'm obviously far more inclined to believe than you, thinks Teachers Unions are great and do heaps to improve education quality and outcomes, and given the number of different experts he's interviewed on his show on the subject, I tend to believe he knows a lot about the subject.

                        So it's not just a he-says you-say, what actual information would you point to, to convince me on the subject?


                        With regard to my post, I was more talking about 'number of years' in formal education. Quality of education is a bit hard to measure and can be pretty subjective, but 'number of years' spent is a fairly simple cross-country measure that's easy to look at. The data certainly shows that more years spent in formal education on average is tied to better outcomes for countries. I presume that 'better' education also has better outcomes, but it's hard to know what counts as 'better'.
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                          My favourite US political commentator (Sam Seder on The Majority Report), who I'm obviously far more inclined to believe than you, thinks Teachers Unions are great
                          I'm shocked - you found somebody who agrees with you!

                          Naturally, I can find tons of conservative sites that back the premise that US education if falling behind, but I suspect you'd hand-wave them away, so how 'bout NPR --- hardly a bastion of Conservatism...

                          Study Confirms U.S. Falling Behind In Education

                          MELISSA BLOCK, host:

                          An absolute wake-up call for America. That's how Education Secretary Arne Duncan views the results of an international standardized test in which U.S. students ranked from 15th to 25th worldwide in science, reading and math.

                          At the top of the list are students from Shanghai, with Hong Kong and Singapore not far behind.

                          The test is called the Program for International Student Assessment or PISA. It's given to 15-year-old students by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

                          And senior analyst Michael Davidson joins us to talk about it. He helped to compile and analyze the results.

                          Mr. Davidson, welcome.

                          Mr. MICHAEL DAVIDSON (Senior Analyst, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development): Good, thank you.

                          BLOCK: Let's look a Little more closely at the U.S. students' scores. Of these three subjects, U.S. students did best on reading, tied with Poland and Liechtenstein, if I'm reading this right.

                          Mr. DAVIDSON: That's correct, yeah. On reading, writing - the OECD average, in fact - yes, tied to those countries you mentioned.

                          BLOCK: OK, not so strong though in science and in math. Below average in math, tied with Ireland.

                          Mr. DAVIDSON: That's right. Mathematics is really of the three areas where the U.S. falls further short of the OECD average.


                          Every pro-Union organization - pretty much any Democrat or liberal source - is gonna say ether that Education in the US is doing great, or that the problem is "not enough money"


                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            I'm shocked - you found somebody who agrees with you!
                            I don't inherently have any opinion about teachers unions - they're not something much talked about in my country other than when there's headlines about schoolteachers striking for higher pay. So I didn't go and look for US sources to confirm my existing opinions because I didn't have existing opinions. Rather, my favourite US political commentary program happens to occasionally discuss Teachers Unions in the US and interview experts on the subject, and they seem to unanimously think that Teachers Unions are great and good for education quality.

                            Naturally, I can find tons of conservative sites that back the premise that US education if falling behind, but I suspect you'd hand-wave them away, so how 'bout NPR --- hardly a bastion of Conservatism...
                            I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the claim that US education is falling behind, what I'm wanting is any sort of proof that Teachers Unions might be responsible. Given I've watched many interviews where experts claim that Teachers Unions are wonderful for improving education quality, I'm inherently skeptical of the claim you made that Teachers Unions are the cause of poor quality education in the US, so that's why I'm wanting you to back up that point. You can, of course, simply say that the expert interviews I've seen were on a pro-democrat pro-union show, which is true, but equally I might reasonably assume that you're just anti-teachers-unions because you're a union-hating conservative and that you've got no more reason for your views than a gut-objection to unions that comes as a result of your own negative experiences of police unions.
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              I don't inherently have any opinion about teachers unions - they're not something much talked about in my country other than when there's headlines about schoolteachers striking for higher pay. So I didn't go and look for US sources to confirm my existing opinions because I didn't have existing opinions. Rather, my favourite US political commentary program happens to occasionally discuss Teachers Unions in the US and interview experts on the subject, and they seem to unanimously think that Teachers Unions are great and good for education quality.
                              We have a whole thread (or two or three) about how Teachers Unions are bad for public education -- I'm not going to rehash this all here, but we've seen that the "Science" says kids need to be back in school, and it's the Teachers unions that are standing in the way.

                              It's also nearly impossible to fire bad teachers, for example, because of Teachers unions -- same thing for police unions - it's almost impossible to fire bad cops.

                              I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the claim that US education is falling behind, what I'm wanting is any sort of proof that Teachers Unions might be responsible. Given I've watched many interviews where experts claim that Teachers Unions are wonderful for improving education quality, I'm inherently skeptical of the claim you made that Teachers Unions are the cause of poor quality education in the US, so that's why I'm wanting you to back up that point. You can, of course, simply say that the expert interviews I've seen were on a pro-democrat pro-union show, which is true, but equally I might reasonably assume that you're just anti-teachers-unions because you're a union-hating conservative and that you've got no more reason for your views than a gut-objection to unions that comes as a result of your own negative experiences of police unions.
                              OK, so US education if falling behind other nations, and all major public schools are run by teachers unions. That's not a problem?

                              Teachers unions are far more concerned with political activity than they are with education. Again, that's discussed at length in the threads dealing with that subject.



                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                we've seen that the "Science" says kids need to be back in school, and it's the Teachers unions that are standing in the way.
                                It's understandable there's a tension between preventing Covid spread by keeping kids at home, and having the kids go to school to get a good education.

                                OK, so US education if falling behind other nations, and all major public schools are run by teachers unions. That's not a problem?
                                It's not inherently obvious that teachers unions would be the reason that the US is falling behind. Plenty of other factors play a role in educational outcomes, e.g. socioeconomics, nutrition, home environment, parental education levels, funding, class size, curriculum, teaching styles, testing styles, and possibly genetics. Plenty of other countries have teachers unions (e.g. my own).

                                When I google the topic, about half of the links I get say that the US isn't doing badly on education, and the other half say it is doing badly and then clarify that they mean it's about in the middle of the pack of developed countries and offer no explanations or reasons why they think it's not doing better.

                                There's been concern in my own country recently that educational outcomes are dropping, but identifying why isn't easy. I tend to believe it's due to a bunch of changes to the system made about 20 years ago that I didn't like... but I sure can't prove it, and I'm aware education is complicated and just because I don't happen to like something doesn't mean that that thing is actually to blame with regard to how outcomes have changed. You could blame teachers unions here if you liked for that, but given we've had teachers unions for 70 years and educational outcomes have gotten worse in the last decade or so, it doesn't seem very likely that teachers unions were the cause.
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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