Counting Deaths.

[CivilDiscourse]

So, I've been thinking about how people like firstfloor and others have been counting capitol riot deaths. The methodology seems to be "If there is a link to the riots, it's a riot death, regardless of the cause of death." What do I mean by that? Well, look at the people counted as "riot deaths". A heart attack (Kevin Greeson) is a riot death. A Stroke (Benjamin Philips) is a riot death. The police shooting a rioter (Ashli Babbitt) is a riot death. A suicide after days after the riot, those get added to the rally. And of course, the riot was "caused by trump" and therefore Trump is responsible for all the deaths.

This isn't a bad way to do counting, it relies on the "If not for" standard. I.E., If not for the riot, this would not have happened.

But, at the same time, when we look at how deaths are caused during the summer riots, we see that the standard for counting changes. Instead of relying on "if not for" as the standard, suddenly the actual cause of death becomes important. Natural cause death (such as heart attacks, strokes) are never counted as part of the summer riot deaths. They don't ever seem to be reported. If a cop kills a rioter, that's a Cop death, not a riot death. In fact, a riot death ONLY seems to be counted if it was definitively proven to be caused by a rioter, with a direct connection to the riot itself. Anything else is counted as a death caused by someone/something else. And, at no point is BLM ever held responsible for the riots that came from their protests, the rioters are always held as separate, and the "if not for" standard is never brought up.

[kccd]

So, I've been thinking about how people like firstfloor and others have been counting capitol riot deaths. The methodology seems to be "If there is a link to the riots, it's a riot death, regardless of the cause of death." What do I mean by that? Well, look at the people counted as "riot deaths". A heart attack (Kevin Greeson) is a riot death. A Stroke (Benjamin Philips) is a riot death. The police shooting a rioter (Ashli Babbitt) is a riot death. A suicide after days after the riot, those get added to the rally. And of course, the riot was "caused by trump" and therefore Trump is responsible for all the deaths.

This isn't a bad way to do counting, it relies on the "If not for" standard. I.E., If not for the riot, this would not have happened.

But, at the same time, when we look at how deaths are caused during the summer riots, we see that the standard for counting changes. Instead of relying on "if not for" as the standard, suddenly the actual cause of death becomes important. Natural cause death (such as heart attacks, strokes) are never counted as part of the summer riot deaths. They don't ever seem to be reported. If a cop kills a rioter, that's a Cop death, not a riot death. In fact, a riot death ONLY seems to be counted if it was definitively proven to be caused by a rioter, with a direct connection to the riot itself. Anything else is counted as a death caused by someone/something else. And, at no point is BLM ever held responsible for the riots that came from their protests, the rioters are always held as separate, and the "if not for" standard is never brought up.

I think if an individual suffers a medical emergency like a heart attack while in the thick of a chaotic event like the Jan 6 insurrection, they are not going to get prompt medical care, so yes the chaotic event will be a contributing factor in their death.

BLM does not plan riots or looting, so I don't see why they should be blamed if bad actors decide to take advantage of what is planned, which are demonstrations.

[CivilDiscourse]

I think if an individual suffers a medical emergency like a heart attack while in the thick of a chaotic event like the Jan 6 insurrection, they are not going to get prompt medical care, so yes the chaotic event will be a contributing factor in their death.

BLM does not plan riots or looting, so I don't see why they should be blamed if bad actors decide to take advantage of what is planned, which are demonstrations.

Then I would say that you have to show that Trump planned the capitol riot, otherwise you are not holding a consistent standard.

[Cow Poke]

I think if an individual suffers a medical emergency like a heart attack while in the thick of a chaotic event like the Jan 6 insurrection, they are not going to get prompt medical care, so yes the chaotic event will be a contributing factor in their death.

BLM does not plan riots or looting, so I don't see why they should be blamed if bad actors decide to take advantage of what is planned, which are demonstrations.

Wow --- BLM does not plan riots or looting -- a FACT, backed by..... what?

[CivilDiscourse]

Wow --- BLM does not plan riots or looting -- a FACT, backed by..... what?

It's just a matter of choosing a standard and sticking to it.

If we use the "if not for" standard, then its easy enough to say "if not for the BLM protest then..." and the riots (and every death that occurred due to cops, natural causes, white nationalists, etc.) belong to BLM, as if not for the riot (caused by BLM protests) then those would have lived.

If we use the "Planned" standard kccd just put forth, then it requires that Trump actually planned the riot. If he didn't plan it, then he should not be blamed, just as BLM.

[Cow Poke]

It's just a matter of choosing a standard and sticking to it.

If we use the "if not for" standard, then its easy enough to say "if not for the BLM protest then..." and the riots (and every death that occurred due to cops, natural causes, white nationalists, etc.) belong to BLM, as if not for the riot (caused by BLM protests) then those would have lived.

If we use the "Planned" standard kccd just put forth, then it requires that Trump actually planned the riot. If he didn't plan it, then he should not be blamed, just as BLM.

Either way, it's pretty durn hard to prove a negative. And even ONE event showing BLM involved in rioting would negate the negative declaration thereof.

That kind of thing shows how unobjectively she can think and post.

[CivilDiscourse]

kccd

[kccd]

Then I would say that you have to show that Trump planned the capitol riot, otherwise you are not holding a consistent standard.

Moving the goalposts.

I was responding to your OP which did not mention Trump. Your OP only questioned whether the Capitol riot could be responsible for those deaths.

[CivilDiscourse]

Moving the goalposts.

I was responding to your OP which did not mention Trump. Your OP only questioned whether the Capitol riot could be responsible for those deaths.

The OP did mention Trump.

And of course, the riot was "caused by trump" and therefore Trump is responsible for all the deaths.

[kccd]

Wow --- BLM does not plan riots or looting -- a FACT, backed by..... what?

Can you provide evidence of BLM actually planning a destructive riot or looting in advance? They plan demonstrations. from wikipedia:

Strategies and tactics
Black Lives Matter originally used various social media platforms—including hashtag activism—to reach thousands of people rapidly. Since then, Black Lives Matter has embraced a diversity of tactics. Black Lives Matter protests have been overwhelmingly peaceful; when violence does occur, it is often committed by police or by counter-protestors. Despite this, opponents have falsely portrayed the movement as violent

[Cow Poke]

Can you provide evidence of BLM actually planning a destructive riot or looting in advance? They plan demonstrations. from wikipedia:

Ah, you're saying their rioting and looting is spontaneous and opportunistic? It's just that their "planned demonstrations" devolve into rioting and looting. MUCH better!