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What's the US Conservative equivalent of moving to Canada?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    We are not wimps who run away from our country when things don't go our way.
    And we don't make idiotic threats we don't plan on making good. How many of those nutters threatened to move to Canada or elsewhere, but never left?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      And the liberals, who after every election loss who made that claim are time and time again, shown to have been full of El Toro poopoo
      That
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        The great thing about the USA is we get to do it all over again every 4 years. And even with the liberals in charge, we still have the greatest constitution in the world.
        Every TWO years! There is OFTEN a major change in the off year election --- Obama referred to his first term's losses as a "shellacking".
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          The great thing about the USA is we get to do it all over again every 4 years. And even with the liberals in charge, we still have the greatest constitution in the world.
          True 200 years ago. It’s 2021 now and many better constitutions have been created in that time.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Watermelon View Post

            True 200 years ago. It’s 2021 now and many better constitutions have been created in that time.
            I'll bite. Examples and reasons they are better, please.
            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Watermelon View Post

              True 200 years ago. It’s 2021 now and many better constitutions have been created in that time.
              You can't just claim that and then leave us all hanging.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                I'll bite. Examples and reasons they are better, please.
                If you think about it, something like writing a constitution well is going to be quite hard to get right and a lot of trial and error is going to be needed. The early constitutions are going to have lots of problems, and people are going to have learnt from the past and what's gone right or wrong in other countries, and would tend to design their constitutions in the present day with that in mind. In America even, the first constitution - the Articles of Confederation - didn't even survive a decade before being considered so problematic that an entire redo was needed in order to give more power to the Federal Government, leading to the writing of the US's current constitution. Subsequently plenty of Amendments would follow.

                Over the centuries since, many countries copied the US's constitution, especially in Central and South America, and for a while due to the US's successes, the US constitution was the most-copied constitution. But over time these countries all tended to have a similar pattern of problems: They experienced partisan gridlock, their governments went into shutdown, and their Presidents seized power on the back of a wave of popular support that something needed to be done, and the President overthrew the constitution and became a dictator. Unless I am missing one, I don't think any of the many countries that historically copied the US constitution survived to the present day with their democracy intact.

                As you might imagine, for the above reasons, the US constitution is no longer a popular constitution to copy in the present day. The US's underlying Presidential model is widely viewed by political scientists now as fundamentally flawed and paving the way to dictatorship and democratic collapse. Instead the UK / Canada / Australia's parliamentary system is viewed as vastly superior. Its design fundamentally prevents grid-lock and makes the leader far more accountable to the other politicians and so makes democratic collapse into dictatorship far less likely.

                In the present day, Canada's constitution is the most-copied by other countries looking to adopt a democratic constitution that enshrines rights and freedoms.

                The US constitution is now widely viewed internationally as one of the most-flawed constitutions in current use for 3 reasons:
                1. The Presidential system is viewed as untenable compared to parliamentary systems. Recent US government shutdowns, as well as ongoing partisan gridlock on policy issues, only serve to confirm this in the minds of the international public and political scientists.
                2. The specific rights and freedoms it does and doesn't guarantee are viewed very negatively in other nations. (From the link above:) "It fails to protect rights, such as freedom from discrimination based on race or sex, that are considered fundamental in our time; it enshrines rights, such as the right to bear arms, that other nations don't value"
                3. Increasingly conservative / originalist US SCOTUS rulings about the meaning of the US constitution are viewed as hilarious, silly, and untenable on the international stage. (From the link above:) "[US] courts increasingly interpret the American [constitution] so perversely – by claiming that it must only be applied as the founding fathers originally intended – as to render it useless as a tool for tackling modern problems."

                Overall, among developed countries in the present day, the US constitution is generally viewed as the worst constitution, and Canada's is generally viewed as the best. (I am not personally a fan of Canada's constitution, and prefer my own country's lack-of-constitution, but we have a parliamentary system like Canada which is definitely good.)
                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                  Every TWO years! There is OFTEN a major change in the off year election --- Obama referred to his first term's losses as a "shellacking".
                  Yeah! I am hoping in two years we will take back the Senate. Biden seems determined to turn as many people against him as soon as he possibly can with all of his executive orders.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Watermelon View Post

                    True 200 years ago. It’s 2021 now and many better constitutions have been created in that time.
                    *snort*

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Watermelon View Post

                      True 200 years ago. It’s 2021 now and many better constitutions have been created in that time.
                      All of those I've seen have a clause somewhere that pretty much allows it to be thrown out the window if someone claims they have a good enough reason. So they literally aren't even worth the paper they're written on.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        All of those I've seen have a clause somewhere that pretty much allows it to be thrown out the window if someone claims they have a good enough reason.
                        Could you give a specific example of this?
                        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          True 200 years ago. It’s 2021 now and many better constitutions have been created in that time.
                          *snort*
                          If you think that the US constitution is the best, and is obviously and indisputably the best...

                          ...why wouldn't other countries copy it?

                          And if they did... then the US would no longer have the best constitution, just equal-best.

                          And if many countries copied it, and even one of them improved theirs in some way, via a single amendment that was beneficial... then the US would no longer have the best constitution would it?


                          It seems to me that constitution-worshiping US conservatives have a mutually incompatible set of beliefs: You believe that the US and its constitution are #1 and obviously #1, and believe that the rest of the world is totally envious of that greatness, yet, apparently since you believe none of the rest of the world even comes close in greatness, you must believe that none of them have even risen to the level of copying the US's marvellous constitution that you think they think is the greatest and best. After all, if they copied it, they would be equally as good, but you don't believe they are. But if they really are so in awe and so envious, why wouldn't they take the really basic step of adopting a copy of the US constitution? It's not like that would be hard for one of the world's ~196 countries to do so. Maybe, just maybe, nobody's in awe of the US's constitution at all, and the reason they aren't interested in copying it is because they think you've got a terrible constitution?
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liechtenstein

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              Could you give a specific example of this?
                              IIRC the U.N.'s Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR). I remember how when Bill Clinton was singing its praises even some liberals here pointed out that unlike the U.S. Constitution it contained what was effectively a nullification clause.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                                I'll bite. Examples and reasons they are better, please.
                                The US constitution is outdated and inadequate by today’s standards. Too much of it is not relevant or open to interpretation due to use of language and phrases no longer commonly spoken today or addressing a specific situation rather than stating a principle. It needed SCOTUS to add certain implied powers which makes SCOTUS speak as the constitution rather than being just the voice for it and subject to change as the bench changes. It’s also brief in a way that annoyingly makes it vague yet inflexible.

                                Separation of powers is great, the checks and balances however are not only practically useless for their intended purpose but also interferes with the proper separation of powers. Electoral college is just terrible all around.

                                It shouldn’t come as a surprise that better constitutions exist right now. Modern constitutions have benefited from knowledge gained over time and hindsight. No one denies the greatness of the US constitution, it’s importance and influence to all mankind is undisputed. That doesn’t change the fact that significant improvements can and should be made to it to make it relevant for today.

                                Comment

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