Do Libertarians Support Open Borders?

[Gondwanaland]

no.

Okay, thank you.

in that case I find your previous argument explaining why states have not dissolved like you claim countries would, to be.... a bit confusing. If not disingenuous.

you stated: "Every state has poor areas. But moving within the country is not increasing the overall population either."

But then I just presented a proposal made up of the world, where similarly there was no "increasing the overall population", in the same way as the states we were talking about (no outside coming in, everything already being inside), and you've now stated you wouldnt be okay with open borders in that scenario. Which knocks your explanation out from under you rather handily.

[Sparko]

Okay, thank you.

in that case I find your previous argument explaining why states have not dissolved like you claim countries would, to be.... a bit confusing. If not disingenuous.

you stated: "Every state has poor areas. But moving within the country is not increasing the overall population either."

But then I just presented a proposal made up of the world, where similarly there was no "increasing the overall population", in the same way as the states we were talking about (no outside coming in, everything already being inside), and you've now stated you wouldnt be okay with open borders in that scenario. Which knocks your explanation out from under you rather handily.

That's what you get for insisting on a yes/no answer to a loaded question. I tried to explain my position to you several times and you just kept repeating "you didn't answer my question!!!" - seems you weren't really after a discussion, just a gotcha.

If you want to know what I think about open borders, please go back and read my previous posts where I tell you several times.

Just because a country has an open border policy doesn't make it good. Or bad. It all depends on the relative economic and political differences between the countries. Or in the case of some countries, with the countries that border THAT country.

[Gondwanaland]

That's what you get for insisting on a yes/no answer to a loaded question. I tried to explain my position to you several times and you just kept repeating "you didn't answer my question!!!" - seems you weren't really after a discussion, just a gotcha.

I repeated it because you first ignored the question teice, and then claimed it doesnt make sense, and then claimed it was loaded.

If you want to know what I think about open borders, please go back and read my previous posts where I tell you several times.

well it's certainly clear that you dislike open borders, and that you came up with nonsense excuses of why it wouldn't work and then when provided with examples of where it has worked without countries dissolving, you pulled excuses out of a hat to explain it and then took a lot of convincing to answer a question addressing the logic of your excuses.

Just because a country has an open border policy doesn't make it good. Or bad. It all depends on the relative economic and political differences between the countries. Or in the case of some countries, with the countries that border THAT country.

But again, you've been shown that's not really the case.

[Sparko]

I repeated it because you first ignored the question teice, and then claimed it doesnt make sense, and then claimed it was loaded.
well it's certainly clear that you dislike open borders, and that you came up with nonsense excuses of why it wouldn't work and then when provided with examples of where it has worked without countries dissolving, you pulled excuses out of a hat to explain it and then took a lot of convincing to answer a question addressing the logic of your excuses.

But again, you've been shown that's not really the case.

Actually no I haven't. You just used examples that were not relevant. You never saw illegal aliens from Greece invading Italy even before the open borders. Because economically and politically there was no reason for it. But you do see illegal aliens from Turkey and the Middle East pouring across Europe's borders. Just like you don't see Canadians trying to illegally immigrate to the USA but you do see endless caravans of Central Americans trying to illegally cross our southern border. Why do you think that is?

[kccd]

I think he was talking about benefits for illegal immigrants.

It looks doubtful that will become a reality as evidenced by the Democratic debate back in June 2019 when everyone who was running for president, including Biden, raised their hands in support of providing millions of illegals with unlimited health care.

It does not make sense to me not to provide everyone in the country with healthcare. After all, one economic sector that relies heavily on illegals is food, including farm workers, meat packers, restaurant workers. If any of those people have an untreated infectious disease, then many, many others will be exposed. They also work in child and elder care.

[rogue06]

It does not make sense to me not to provide everyone in the country with healthcare. After all, one economic sector that relies heavily on illegals is food, including farm workers, meat packers, restaurant workers. If any of those people have an untreated infectious disease, then many, many others will be exposed. They also work in child and elder care.

There is basic healthcare. If you walk into any hospital sick or injured you'll still get treated regardless of your ability to pay. In some places, if it isn't critical, they may send you to a county hospital for that treatment, but you'll still get treated.

And yes, one of the problems is employers who rely on cheap labor often so they don't have to pay any of the various taxes themselves. There seems to far little emphasis on holding them responsible and going after the folks who snuck across the border.

[Gondwanaland]

Actually no I haven't. You just used examples that were not relevant. You never saw illegal aliens from Greece invading Italy even before the open borders. Because economically and politically there was no reason for it. But you do see illegal aliens from Turkey and the Middle East pouring across Europe's borders. Just like you don't see Canadians trying to illegally immigrate to the USA but you do see endless caravans of Central Americans trying to illegally cross our southern border. Why do you think that is?

They are, in fact, directly relevant. You were given multiple examples of places where states, and countries, were in open-borders agreements with others, wherein some of the states/countries are far worse off economically, yet magically this dissolving of countries you claim will occur..... simply hasn't. You're just arguing an invented excuse as to why we should not have open borders.

[Starlight]

There is basic healthcare. If you walk into any hospital sick or injured you'll still get treated regardless of your ability to pay.

You make it sound as if such care is free. It isn't. In the US, such hospitals will still try to charge the person after treating them, potentially handling the debt over to debt collectors if it isn't paid, potentially the person would have to declare bankruptcy, and it might affect them for the rest of their life financially with terrible credit ratings.

And yes, one of the problems is employers who rely on cheap labor often so they don't have to pay any of the various taxes themselves.

You're strangely implying for the second time in this thread that illegal immigrants don't pay taxes. They do. They, like other taxpayers would fund the government services they and the other taxpayers would receive.

Not only do they pay the sales taxes, customs and excise duties on things they buy, and property taxes if those apply. they also very commonly pay income and payroll taxes too, because when they sign up for any job their employer deducts payroll and income taxes and sends them to the IRS as appropriate and is required to record an IRS number for the employee. Usually, the illegal immigrants voluntarily get a tax number from the IRS, because the IRS has a special scheme for this and they are happy to hand out tax numbers no-questions-asked because the IRS is very happy for people to pay them money. The illegal immigrants pay their taxes to the IRS like everyone else, and are very happy to be able to demonstrate they've been paying taxes for years like a good citizen when they apply for citizenship years down the track. If the illegal immigrant hasn't made the application to the IRS and doesn't have a tax number, their employers still require a tax number on the documentation, so commonly illegal immigrants will just make one up and write down a random invalid number. IRS is also quite happy with this, as they're happy to receive money, and they deliberately turn a blind eye to what they can see is an invalid number knowing it's probably coming from an illegal immigrant, but the IRS chooses to be happy to receive the money from the illegal immigrant rather than investigating them, in order to encourage more people to pay taxes.

When you whine about providing taxpayer-funded healthcare for illegal immigrants as if this would be some sort of unfundable huge expense, your complaint doesn't make any sense, because the illegal immigrants are taxpayers just like anyone else.

[Starlight]

They are, in fact, directly relevant. You were given multiple examples of places where states, and countries, were in open-borders agreements with others, wherein some of the states/countries are far worse off economically, yet magically this dissolving of countries you claim will occur..... simply hasn't. You're just arguing an invented excuse as to why we should not have open borders.

It doesn't seem to me like open borders is working very well for Europe.

I think open borders only makes sense between countries that are culturally and economically very similar. e.g. between Canada and the US, or between New Zealand and Australia, or among the Scandinavian countries. In cases where the level of similarity is sufficiently great that you could reasonably say "it actually would be highly plausible for these countries to combine into one country", then open borders can make sense even if the countries remain having separate governments. Otherwise, differences in culture, and also in governmental policy can cause serious issues.

[Sparko]

It doesn't seem to me like open borders is working very well for Europe.

I think open borders only makes sense between countries that are culturally and economically very similar. e.g. between Canada and the US, or between New Zealand and Australia, or among the Scandinavian countries. In cases where the level of similarity is sufficiently great that you could reasonably say "it actually would be highly plausible for these countries to combine into one country", then open borders can make sense even if the countries remain having separate governments. Otherwise, differences in culture, and also in governmental policy can cause serious issues.

Crap. Me and Starliight agree on something. A definite sign of the end times.

[Gondwanaland]

It doesn't seem to me like open borders is working very well for Europe.

I think open borders only makes sense between countries that are culturally and economically very similar. e.g. between Canada and the US, or between New Zealand and Australia, or among the Scandinavian countries. In cases where the level of similarity is sufficiently great that you could reasonably say "it actually would be highly plausible for these countries to combine into one country", then open borders can make sense even if the countries remain having separate governments. Otherwise, differences in culture, and also in governmental policy can cause serious issues.

The only reason they're having middling results is their open and massive welfare and medical system state programs that dwarf ours. Remove that, or limit it to just citizens, and that issue disappears.