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Allegations of Capitol ‘reconnaissance’ tours

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    What did President Trump say or do that encouraged people to storm the Capitol building and commit crimes?
    I ask you, what was the intention of the people who attacked the police guarding the Capitol and broke into the building?

    The stated intention of most I have seen interviewed was to prevent the congress from formally validating the election results as they stand, which show Biden to have won. Furthermore, they claim, the election was actually won by Trump. Now where did they get the idea that Trump had won the election?

    Trump had lied repeatedly since the election, stating that he in fact won the election, and he continued to lie forcefully in the speech on January 6. By forcefully, I mean that he is leaving no room for ambiguity. In the past, when Trump made up stuff on the spot, he often qualified what he was saying with 'I believe' or 'some people say', but that is not the case here (in particular, claims made in the first 7 minutes): https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts...ript-january-6

    There is no doubt about the fact of who won the election, no more more doubt than the results in 2016 or 2012 or 2008 or 2004--and certainly not nearly the doubt as in 2000. Trump is lying. If you disagree with this statement (and please don't come back a non-sequitur like, 'oh, but Obama lied about being able to keep your doctor'), please state so along with evidence. Also, I am not talking about being able to find 10 or 20 fraudulent votes, or even a couple hundred. That happens every election and people get punished for it. I am talking about tens of thousands of votes in multiple states which could actually mean that Trump won the election, as he claims.

    So, again assuming you agree that Trump was lying, the question is whether these lies could be construed to have incited the violence on January 6. Put another way, do you think that if Trump conceded the election in mid-November or even mid-December, when it was clear that he had lost, would the Capitol had been attacked on January 6?

    Certainly, he is not alone responsible for the attacks, but he is responsible none the less.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      If this was something that was preplanned, and there is new evidence to suggest that it was, then it certainly throws a wrench in the Democrat impeachment narrative that the President's speech on January 6 incited a riot.
      Ok, I keep seeing this stated like it's a contentious issue. I wasn't a Trumpist, nor on Parler, I'm just a standard political junkie who follows many people I don't agree with, including at least a couple that were planning to "attend a Capitol rally" on the 6th. So... I knew this was planned well before Trump's speech. The media are either lying or grossly incompetent to not have known themselves. Or both. Can't discount both.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by casaba View Post

        I ask you, what was the intention of the people who attacked the police guarding the Capitol and broke into the building?

        The stated intention of most I have seen interviewed was to prevent the congress from formally validating the election results as they stand, which show Biden to have won. Furthermore, they claim, the election was actually won by Trump. Now where did they get the idea that Trump had won the election?

        Trump had lied repeatedly since the election, stating that he in fact won the election, and he continued to lie forcefully in the speech on January 6. By forcefully, I mean that he is leaving no room for ambiguity. In the past, when Trump made up stuff on the spot, he often qualified what he was saying with 'I believe' or 'some people say', but that is not the case here (in particular, claims made in the first 7 minutes): https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts...ript-january-6

        There is no doubt about the fact of who won the election, no more more doubt than the results in 2016 or 2012 or 2008 or 2004--and certainly not nearly the doubt as in 2000. Trump is lying. If you disagree with this statement (and please don't come back a non-sequitur like, 'oh, but Obama lied about being able to keep your doctor'), please state so along with evidence. Also, I am not talking about being able to find 10 or 20 fraudulent votes, or even a couple hundred. That happens every election and people get punished for it. I am talking about tens of thousands of votes in multiple states which could actually mean that Trump won the election, as he claims.

        So, again assuming you agree that Trump was lying, the question is whether these lies could be construed to have incited the violence on January 6. Put another way, do you think that if Trump conceded the election in mid-November or even mid-December, when it was clear that he had lost, would the Capitol had been attacked on January 6?

        Certainly, he is not alone responsible for the attacks, but he is responsible none the less.
        So... what did Trump actually say or do that would have encouraged people to break into the Capitol and commit crimes?
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

          So... what did Trump actually say or do that would have encouraged people to break into the Capitol and commit crimes?
          Let me try an analogy: Say that I am a police chief and I tell a crowd of people that a gang of computer hackers is hiding in the building around the corner and that these hackers are about to empty everybody's bank account and 401K in the next two hours. I tell the crowd, "We’re not going to let it happen. Not going to let it happen." and "we’re not going to stand for that." and "So we’re going to, we’re going to walk around the corner, and we’re going to that building and we’re going to try and give… The hackers are hopeless."

          The crowd then goes around the corner and break into the said building. Turns out it is an IRS building which is processing valid tax returns.

          Now, would I, as police chief, be partly responsible for the actions of the crowd?
          Say that I had been complaining to friends for months about activity in this building and that some of these friends had planned to break into this building on that same day. Would that somehow excuse my behavior?

          The very simple question I will repeat is, if Trump did not repeatedly lie about the election results, both before and on the day, would that crowd in DC have invaded the Capitol building?

          I have made an honest attempt to answer your question. I would appreciate if you could do the same for this last question.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by LeaC View Post

            Ok, I keep seeing this stated like it's a contentious issue. I wasn't a Trumpist, nor on Parler, I'm just a standard political junkie who follows many people I don't agree with, including at least a couple that were planning to "attend a Capitol rally" on the 6th. So... I knew this was planned well before Trump's speech. The media are either lying or grossly incompetent to not have known themselves. Or both. Can't discount both.
            I am sorry but I am not sure I understand you.

            Are you saying that because some people had planned to invade the Capitol building that Trump shared zero blame for the events of the day?

            If so, I think your black-and-white view of the world borders on dishonesty. (So far, I have been giving Mountain Man the benefit of the doubt in this thread on this same thought.)

            If I am misunderstanding you, sorry. Please correct me.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              If this was something that was preplanned, and there is new evidence to suggest that it was, then it certainly throws a wrench in the Democrat impeachment narrative that the President's speech on January 6 incited a riot.
              They won't just use evidence of the STS speech but all evidence that Trump knew who his most violent supporters were and failed to address them when given the chance.

              Here's a town Hall where Trump denies knowledge of QAnon beliefs, when he was well aware of the QAnon demographic:



              Trump was also well aware of the Alex Jones demographic, as Roger Stone had often appeared on Jones' show.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                What did President Trump say or do that encouraged people to storm the Capitol building and commit crimes?
                He said his VP was the last link in the chain to overturn election results. He invited Rudy Giuliani to talk and encourage "trial by combat." He let his sons say they'd make any Republican who doesn't object to certification a living hell. He waited to condemn invasion, which shocked even his family and closest advisors. He said "I love you. You are very special" to those who invaded the capital. =/

                Before that, he pretended he didn't know who QAnon essentially was other than "people who hated pedophilia." (Understatement of the year. They actually believe that the elites are vampires who harvest adrenochrome from children to inject themselves with to stay young.)

                Before that, he told Proud Boys to "stand back and stand by," presumably not to have tea but to engage in armed conflict

                That's just off the top of my head.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by casaba View Post

                  Let me try an analogy: Say that I am a police chief and I tell a crowd of people that a gang of computer hackers is hiding in the building around the corner and that these hackers are about to empty everybody's bank account and 401K in the next two hours. I tell the crowd, "We’re not going to let it happen. Not going to let it happen." and "we’re not going to stand for that." and "So we’re going to, we’re going to walk around the corner, and we’re going to that building and we’re going to try and give… The hackers are hopeless."

                  The crowd then goes around the corner and break into the said building. Turns out it is an IRS building which is processing valid tax returns.

                  Now, would I, as police chief, be partly responsible for the actions of the crowd?
                  Say that I had been complaining to friends for months about activity in this building and that some of these friends had planned to break into this building on that same day. Would that somehow excuse my behavior?

                  The very simple question I will repeat is, if Trump did not repeatedly lie about the election results, both before and on the day, would that crowd in DC have invaded the Capitol building?

                  I have made an honest attempt to answer your question. I would appreciate if you could do the same for this last question.
                  So the answer to my question, "What did Trump actually say or do that would have encouraged people to break into the Capitol and commit crimes?" is... nothing.

                  My answer to your question is "It's impossible to say."
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by whag View Post

                    He said his VP was the last link in the chain to overturn election results. He invited Rudy Giuliani to talk and encourage "trial by combat." He let his sons say they'd make any Republican who doesn't object to certification a living hell. He waited to condemn invasion, which shocked even his family and closest advisors. He said "I love you. You are very special" to those who invaded the capital. =/

                    Before that, he pretended he didn't know who QAnon essentially was other than "people who hated pedophilia." (Understatement of the year. They actually believe that the elites are vampires who harvest adrenochrome from children to inject themselves with to stay young.)

                    Before that, he told Proud Boys to "stand back and stand by," presumably not to have tea but to engage in armed conflict

                    That's just off the top of my head.
                    Alright, so President Trump never actually said or did anything that would have encouraged people to break into the Capitol and commit crimes.

                    Thanks for answering.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                      Alright, so President Trump never actually said or did anything that would have encouraged people to break into the Capitol and commit crimes.

                      Thanks for answering.
                      Yes, other than saying his own administration was plotting to do something illegal. No emergency there! =)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        What did President Trump say or do that encouraged people to storm the Capitol building and commit crimes?
                        Aside from building up hysteria before the event or do you mean just that day?

                        Also, this Trump quote STS rally puzzles me:

                        "Republicans are constantly fighting like a boxer with his hands tied behind his back. It’s like a boxer, and we want to be so nice. We want to be so respectful of everybody, including bad people. We’re going to have to fight much harder, and Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us. And if he doesn’t, that will be a sad day for our country because you’re sworn to uphold our constitution. Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy."
                        What did Trump think the end game here was? If the end game was to make a show of MAGA, that doesn't make sense since a large show of people couldn't reverse the election especially at that late date. But I see your point that the end game couldn't be capital invasion, either, since that's complicated and requires lots of planning other than purposefully obstructing security measures that day.

                        The obvious conclusion is that POTUS wanted something somewhere in the middle of those options, which makes sense given his intelligence and maturity level. I think that's the case that will be made to prove that Trump is too reckless to be president and hence is unfit for the office. And he's helped them make that case, no one can deny. His approval is hovering at 30%.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by whag View Post

                          Yes, other than saying his own administration was plotting to do something illegal.
                          When did the President say he was planning to do something illegal?

                          Originally posted by whag View Post

                          Aside from building up hysteria before the event or do you mean just that day?

                          Also, this Trump quote STS rally puzzles me:



                          What did Trump think the end game here was? If the end game was to make a show of MAGA, that doesn't make sense since a large show of people couldn't reverse the election especially at that late date. But I see your point that the end game couldn't be capital invasion, either, since that's complicated and requires lots of planning other than purposefully obstructing security measures that day.

                          The obvious conclusion is that POTUS wanted something somewhere in the middle of those options, which makes sense given his intelligence and maturity level. I think that's the case that will be made to prove that Trump is too reckless to be president and hence is unfit for the office. And he's helped them make that case, no one can deny. His approval is hovering at 30%.
                          All that is to say that President Trump never actually said or did anything to encourage people to storm the Capitol building and commit crimes.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                            When did the President say he was planning to do something illegal?



                            All that is to say that President Trump never actually said or did anything to encourage people to storm the Capitol building and commit crimes.
                            Well, unless you close your eyes, stand on your head, and work up a steam of vitriol, then you can see it quite clearly.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                              When did the President say he was planning to do something illegal?
                              Uh oh, you're sounding like a lawyer now. Were the votes legal?


                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              All that is to say that President Trump never actually said or did anything to encourage people to storm the Capitol building and commit crimes.
                              I wrote my opinion on this and you dismissed it. I acknowledged your side's point about an executive-ordered event plan being implausible. But I also said Trump obviously sought disruption beyond a show of numbers, which is why he waited to respond. Leaders like Trump don't panic and wonder how to respond. They act immediately and extemporaneously. He was enjoying it. < That very well might be justification to remove him from office but maybe not. If not, the trial had probable cause. We might be wrong here, but I can't imagine if the situation were inverse, you'd hold a different opinion.

                              Could you make the case you wouldn't?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                                Well, unless you close your eyes, stand on your head, and work up a steam of vitriol, then you can see it quite clearly.
                                That's because, like many things, the truth is somewhere in between. Trump wanted something disruptive enough to force an instant change. Remember, he'd been telling the crowds the siege was at peak level--extending even to his VP. That's bonkers!

                                I've acknowledged for that reason it's not watertight, but one could easily make the argument that Trump, while not being directly complicit, was at least reckless enough in events leading up to siege to be removed.

                                There's also the calculation that Trump might have leveraged the timing of this to cause chaos. It's incredibly tricky to punish a president at this late date, but there's an understandable thirst to give this moron the heave ho, especially after all his epic betrayals and needless complications. Barr complained of his needless interference there.

                                Comment

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