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Did Trump Cause An Insurrection?

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  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

    Far too narrow a question to answer, except that I am a Christian and I believe what the Bible teaches about God and good and evil. The problem is people are both good and evil, and often - whether we realize it or not - being for or against some party or policy is more a matter of placing values on the parts that are good against the parts that are bad, and we don't all put the same relative value on all the same things. So in the end even as Christians we support different policies or political parties on different things
    This is reasonable. I believe as Christians we are under the Lord's authority revealed in the Bible and should try to align ourselves to it in every area of our lives as His will is revealed to us. Thank you for the civil discussion.


    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

      I used to try to walk a very careful line in Church NOT to say anything that could be perceived as a political endorsement of either prominent political party.

      Over the years, however, speaking on the issues seems to line up with a particular party, regardless of how you approach it.
      • Pro Abortion - only one party proudly waves that banner
      • Pro Life - our Church is observing "Sanctity of Human Life Sunday" this week.
      • Homosexuality - only one party proudly waves that 'rainbow' banner
      • Religious Liberty - not quite as crystal clear, but conservatives are more likely than not to wave that banner, and the other party increasingly distances themselves from "God", not even allowing that issue on their party platform
      • Pro Israel - as I mentioned, it's a different Israel than "Bible Times", but Trump, for example, stood up for Israel and moved the Embassy to Jerusalem, the Nation's legitimate capital.
      On these issues, I believe the record is quite clear.
      Nice and clear thanks!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Those who hate Trump will see every justification in the world for trying Trump as an traitor -- we've already seen plenty of that mentality here.

        Legally? No. Did he say some really stupid things? Absolutely, in my opinion.
        Let's listen to one of those who ended up endorsing him, Albert Mohler, president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary:

        What we are seeing in Washington now is the refutation of our American commitment, a form of unleashed anarchy which is the enemy of ordered liberty, and President Trump is responsible now for unleashing mayhem. Pray that God will rescue is from this.

        https://twitter.com/albertmohler/sta...25742639226891
        "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

        Comment


        • A few words from the nutters that stormed the capital and those that funded them. Apparently the President of the US, however absurd that sounds, told them that the republic was under existential threat from a "stolen" election, (Audience chants: “Fight for Trump.”), "And Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us, and if he doesn’t, that will be a, a sad day for our country because you’re sworn to uphold our Constitution. Now, it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. And after this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you, we’re going to walk down, we’re going to walk down." (he wasn't there with them).

          Here he claims the constitution demands that the people act to protect it, "The Republicans have to get tougher. You’re not going to have a Republican Party if you don’t get tougher. They want to play so straight. They want to play so, sir, yes, the United States. The Constitution doesn’t allow me to send them back to the States. Well, I say, yes it does, because the Constitution says you have to protect our country and you have to protect our Constitution, and you can’t vote on fraud. And fraud breaks up everything, doesn’t it? When you catch somebody in a fraud, you’re allowed to go by very different rules."

          "And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore."

          From Trump supporters:

          "“The time for words has passed, action alone will save our Republic,” a user donating $250 wrote, calling congressional certification of the vote “treasonous.” Another contributor gave $47 and posted: “Fight to win our country back using whatever means necessary.”"

          "Mr. Lee had achieved enough prominence that he was included in a roster of speakers at a news conference preceding a “March for Trump” rally in Washington. “We are at this precipice” of “good versus evil,” Mr. Lee declared. “I am going to fight for my president. I am going to fight for what is right.” “American citizens feel like they’ve been attacked. Fear’s reaction is anger, anger’s reaction is patriotism and voilà — you get a war,” said Mr. Lee’s co-host, who gave his name as Rampage."

          "By 10:45 a.m. the next day, more than an hour before Mr. Trump spoke, Mr. Lee was back online broadcasting footage of himself at the Capitol. “If you died today and you went to heaven, can you look George Washington in the face and say that you’ve fought for this country?” he asked.

          “Guys, we got the Three Percent here! The Three Percent here that loves this country and wants to fight!” Mr. Lee reported a little later, referring to another militant group. “We need to surround this place.”"'

          Quoted text not from Trump from: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/16/u...t-funding.html
          Last edited by Zara; 01-17-2021, 04:38 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Zara View Post
            A few words from the nutters that stormed the capital and those that funded them. Apparently the President of the US, however absurd that sounds, told them that the republic was under existential threat from a "stolen" election, (Audience chants: “Fight for Trump.”), "And Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us, and if he doesn’t, that will be a, a sad day for our country because you’re sworn to uphold our Constitution. Now, it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. And after this, we’re going to walk down, and I’ll be there with you, we’re going to walk down, we’re going to walk down." (he wasn't there with them).

            Here he claims the constitution demands that the people act to protect it, "The Republicans have to get tougher. You’re not going to have a Republican Party if you don’t get tougher. They want to play so straight. They want to play so, sir, yes, the United States. The Constitution doesn’t allow me to send them back to the States. Well, I say, yes it does, because the Constitution says you have to protect our country and you have to protect our Constitution, and you can’t vote on fraud. And fraud breaks up everything, doesn’t it? When you catch somebody in a fraud, you’re allowed to go by very different rules."

            "And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don’t fight like hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore."

            From Trump supporters:

            "“The time for words has passed, action alone will save our Republic,” a user donating $250 wrote, calling congressional certification of the vote “treasonous.” Another contributor gave $47 and posted: “Fight to win our country back using whatever means necessary.”"

            "Mr. Lee had achieved enough prominence that he was included in a roster of speakers at a news conference preceding a “March for Trump” rally in Washington. “We are at this precipice” of “good versus evil,” Mr. Lee declared. “I am going to fight for my president. I am going to fight for what is right.” “American citizens feel like they’ve been attacked. Fear’s reaction is anger, anger’s reaction is patriotism and voilà — you get a war,” said Mr. Lee’s co-host, who gave his name as Rampage."

            "By 10:45 a.m. the next day, more than an hour before Mr. Trump spoke, Mr. Lee was back online broadcasting footage of himself at the Capitol. “If you died today and you went to heaven, can you look George Washington in the face and say that you’ve fought for this country?” he asked.

            “Guys, we got the Three Percent here! The Three Percent here that loves this country and wants to fight!” Mr. Lee reported a little later, referring to another militant group. “We need to surround this place.”"'

            Quoted text not from Trump from: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/16/u...t-funding.html
            Are you claiming that saying somenoe/something is an "existential threat" to the country is an attempt at inciting an insurrection, or at least that doing so is a very bad thing to do?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

              Are you claiming that saying somenoe/something is an "existential threat" to the country is an attempt at inciting an insurrection, or at least that doing so is a very bad thing to do?
              Not someone, the President of the US. It is not a single act it is a pattern of behaviour, culminating on the 6th. Why not read the actual impeachment document, it is laid out there.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Zara View Post

                Not someone, the President of the US. It is not a single act it is a pattern of behaviour, culminating on the 6th. Why not read the actual impeachment document, it is laid out there.
                So, repeatedly saying someone is an existential threat to the country is a bad thing?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                  So, repeatedly saying someone is an existential threat to the country is a bad thing?
                  Again, read the impeachment document. It is laid out there, it is not someone it is the President of the US.

                  Also that isn't the claim at all, and you know it.
                  Last edited by Zara; 01-18-2021, 05:03 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Zara View Post

                    Again, read the impeachment document. It is laid out there, it is not someone it is the President of the US.

                    Also that isn't the claim at all, and you know it.
                    What about a congressman. If a congressman says someone is an existential threat to the country, is that a bad thing?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                      What about a congressman. If a congressman says someone is an existential threat to the country, is that a bad thing?
                      It depends, are they an existential threat to the country?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Zara View Post

                        It depends, are they an existential threat to the country?
                        So, what you are saying is merely saying someone/something is an existential threat is NOT in and of itself evidence of inciting insurrection.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                          So, what you are saying is merely saying someone/something is an existential threat is NOT in and of itself evidence of inciting insurrection.
                          Again, read the document, it is a pattern of behaviour that culminated on the 6th. Had Trump simply conceded after his legal avenues were exhausted and the elections certified at the state level, there would have been no storming of the Capital.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Charles View Post

                            Let's listen to one of those who ended up endorsing him, Albert Mohler, president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary:
                            I personally know Al from our many associations with Texas Baptists -- he'll say or print just about anything that keeps his name in the news.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                              I personally know Al from our many associations with Texas Baptists -- he'll say or print just about anything that keeps his name in the news.
                              And he has been anti-Trump for as long as I can remember.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                                And he has been anti-Trump for as long as I can remember.
                                Tassy liked to cite him in the GLBTXSKR.... debate, IIRC.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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