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The Microchip in the Vaccine

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  • Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
    Relevant to an earlier item: Pfizer is now saying that it is already manufacturing a delta-specific RNA vaccine, and expects to start clinical trials in August.

    Just as intriguing, the document it released indicates that it's started safety testing an inhibitor of a key coronavirus enzyme that can be taken orally. If it works out, we'd be in a position where we can pop a pill once an infection is confirmed and inhibit viral replication. Depending on how much the enzyme it targets varies within the coronaviruses, it's possible that this drug would be effective against viruses beyond SARS-CoV-2.
    wow, another way to get those microchips into us!


    Comment


    • Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
      ...

      In any case, if RNA vaccines continue to freak you out despite all the evidence they're safe, get J&J. It's based on very well established technology.
      ...
      Um, no. This is absolutely insane - I mean it. There are reasons that it's literally NOT LEGAL for the Federal government to mandate vaccines that HAVE NOT BEEN THROUGH THE ENTIRE APPROVAL PROCESS. It's NOT okay to insist others be vaccinated EVEN IF you don't agree with their reasoning.

      (Also, J&J has issues - it's been pulled a couple times now for further review. Established technology doesn't translate to safe drug.)

      If they are safe, they can pass the process. The process is long, annoying and complex - precisely because boring, picky and complicated is a great way to find all those little quirky things that you (general) don't see in the rush of excitement over your new shiny. Decades of Ooopies (those kids didn't need arms anyway and okay, we killed a few folks, but still...) are why we have a rigorous FDA approval process. We got LUCKY with AZT - and that's great - but it's a terrible model for mandatory tx or vaccination. Because far more often we didn't get lucky - and we've let a lot of people suffer for those kinds of mistakes.

      No, it's not perfect - the FDA has had to rescind approval more often than it ever should have - but it beats the heck out of circumventing the whole thing every time the public gets skittish.



      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

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      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

        yeah but no treatment is 100% effective. So trying to depend on a treatment to cure you if you catch COVID is riskier than getting the vaccine. If you are weighing the benefits v risks, the vaccine has the most benefit for the least amount of risk.
        Um, this isn't actually the case. Most people don't even require tx.

        As for public health a treatment would be WORLDS better than a vaccine. Instantly (okay, 24 to 48 hours) breaking the line of transmission beats the heck out of waiting weeks for antibodies to build up. A safe, effective tx with few contraindications could break the back of any infection chain - this one especially since you've got ridiculously high levels of compliance. It'd be a snap to get people to line up for preventative tx, even over vaccination if it's an already established drug.

        Take a test, take a pill, wait long enough for the nurse to make sure you are okay, go home - so much easier! Heck, they aren't even going to need an interview - public notice is enough to get volunteers in. I wish STD had been that easy!
        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

        Quill Sword

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        • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post



          Take a test, take a pill, wait long enough for the nurse to make sure you are okay, go home - so much easier! Heck, they aren't even going to need an interview - public notice is enough to get volunteers in. I wish STD had been that easy!
          How much of that do we have irl? I mean for things like this.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

            Um, no. This is absolutely insane - I mean it.
            You seem to be responding to one of my posts, but not anything in it. I'm a bit confused.
            "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              As for public health a treatment would be WORLDS better than a vaccine. Instantly (okay, 24 to 48 hours) breaking the line of transmission beats the heck out of waiting weeks for antibodies to build up. A safe, effective tx with few contraindications could break the back of any infection chain - this one especially since you've got ridiculously high levels of compliance. It'd be a snap to get people to line up for preventative tx, even over vaccination if it's an already established drug.
              To be clear, this would only work with a treatment that targeted viral replication, and reduced levels very quickly. Any treatment that simply reduced the severity of symptoms wouldn't accomplish this.

              Also, given the experience with vaccines in the US, I don't think we can count on high levels of compliance with anything.

              Speaking of which, congratulations to Canada on being yet another country that started distributing vaccines well after the US, but has now shot past it in terms of percentage of the population vaccinated.
              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                You seem to be responding to one of my posts, but not anything in it. I'm a bit confused.
                Hmm, I quoted it. You told MM to get the J&J. It was just that one line I took issue with.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

                  Hmm, I quoted it. You told MM to get the J&J. It was just that one line I took issue with.
                  Only if the RNA-based ones caused him too much concern.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                    To be clear, this would only work with a treatment that targeted viral replication, and reduced levels very quickly. Any treatment that simply reduced the severity of symptoms wouldn't accomplish this.

                    Also, given the experience with vaccines in the US, I don't think we can count on high levels of compliance with anything.

                    Speaking of which, congratulations to Canada on being yet another country that started distributing vaccines well after the US, but has now shot past it in terms of percentage of the population vaccinated.
                    Seriously, no one means 'symptomatic treatment' unless it's explicitly stated. I can see where it might cause some confusion, but I think the meaning was pretty clear that I was discussing disease treatment, not symptom management.

                    The levels of compliance in the US are astronomically high - if we had this level of compliance in STD, we'd have not only achieved syphilis eradication locally (in the country) but probably chlamydial as well. We almost never see levels this high for a campaign - and frankly, that has a heck of a lot to do with the fear mongering from the media. If I'm right - which of course I believe I am - that's going to come back to bite for decades. Enjoy the high compliance rates - if people ever come to believe they were duped, we won't see them again for generations.

                    Scaring the heck out of people will get them to act - it will also have a nasty long term backlash. Even the Tuskegee nonsense (there was no excuse for the research - morphology was already understood) caused a nasty backlash in patient compliance - once they saw that public health had been involved in duping people they became more than a little reluctant to trust us - and that's public health's fault. This go round, public health has ceded to the increasingly insane CDC (publish the dang stats properly!) and the absolutely nutso media (now 60% of deer have C19 - maybe we need to check the specificity on this test before announcing that the sky is in fact falling) - The CDC BETTER be right and just doing bad PR - otherwise, kiss all vaccination programs goodbye within ten years and maybe the non-mandated parts of public health, too.

                    As for Canada - the US has vaccinated more people than they have - by a whooping margin. They only have 30 million to our 327 million. Even at 10% of the US population we'd have already vaccinated the entire population of Canada. If memory serves, it's something like five or six times that now.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Only if the RNA-based ones caused him too much concern.
                      I got that - but J&J isn't without issues - really, seriously, this 'you're a bad person if you aren't vaccinated' thing is out of control - and has to be stopped. Vaccination is NOT the go to for outbreak control - treatment is. Vaccination is what we use when we don't have a safe enough or easy enough treatment simply because it can take YEARS for vaccination to do what treatment can in months.

                      It's not that people are declining in record numbers - they aren't. It's the nature of vaccination programs - this is NORMAL. It takes time to build immunity with a perfectly good vaccine - no telling with an experimental where all the hiccups are. Assuming these things are working as believed, they appear to have a longer immunity curve - hence a really high breakout stat compared to the level of vaccination. Maybe - we won't know for a couple years if history is a good indicator. Given the media's 'helpfulness', technology probably won't win against politics for at least that long.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                      Quill Sword

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

                        I got that - but J&J isn't without issues - really, seriously, this 'you're a bad person if you aren't vaccinated' thing is out of control - and has to be stopped.
                        I don't think that was what he was doing, but rather saying that he thinks any vaccine is better than none -- even one with the potential risks that J&J is said to exhibit.

                        As for the haranguing, Michael Tracey, who is liberal (a Bernie bro), has an interesting piece on that as well as several other myths that his fellow travelers have pushed.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          How much of that do we have irl? I mean for things like this.
                          If I am understanding you correctly, a heck of a lot of STD are dealt with via treatment. Syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, - almost all bacterials (can't think of any exceptions) and most fungals (seems like there's an exception in yeast but I may be remembering wrong - it's not a reportable). Both parasitics are dealt with by treatment (it's not like we have vaccines for parasites anyway) - basically, everything but the virals are directly stopped by treatment.

                          HIV is deterred by treatment - this is because treatment can and often now does drop viral loads to undetectable - and much, much less infectious - levels. It doesn't break the line of transmission because if treatment stops (because the patient stops it or can no longer tolerate it) the viral loads climb back up and the patient is infectious again.

                          TB is dealt with via treatment - TB treatment is a different affair. It's the one exception to the difficulty rule - it's really hard to get full compliance because it takes so long and has some side effects. TB tx has to be completed and that means a DIS observes the therapy EVERY time that a doctor or nurse doesn't. Six months of watching the person take all their medicine - at least. BUT it is extremely effective - once cured, the patient cannot spread disease (they aren't very infectious during tx if memory serves) and as an added bonus, they don't die.


                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

                          Comment


                          • Why are antivirals so hard to make effective?
                            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

                              Hmm, I quoted it. You told MM to get the J&J. It was just that one line I took issue with.
                              As Rogue said, what you quoted was me saying "if RNA vaccines worry you, you should consider the J&J". I said nothing about mandates. You then accused me of being insane for pushing mandates.

                              This is not the first time you've gone off on me for something i never said. Is this particular to me, or do you do that to other people here?
                              Last edited by TheLurch; 08-03-2021, 08:22 AM.
                              "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                It takes time to build immunity with a perfectly good vaccine - no telling with an experimental where all the hiccups are. Assuming these things are working as believed, they appear to have a longer immunity curve - hence a really high breakout stat compared to the level of vaccination.
                                Actually, we have really strong data on how long it takes to build immunity here, since we've carefully tracked breakthrough cases among the very large clinical trial populations. The "two weeks after your second dose" guidance is based on real world data. And the breakthrough stat for the strain it was designed against was very low.

                                What we're seeing is breakthroughs primarily from an evolved form (delta), which is a combination of far more infectious in general, and it has some significant differences in the areas of the spike protein that the immune system tends to produce antibodies directed to. Once they start testing delta-specific vaccines, we can get a sense of how much each of these are at fault for the breakthrough infections it's causing.


                                In any case, i'm not going to make value judgements about anyone who chooses not to get a vaccine. I will, however, promote them because they are far and away the most effective public health measure we have now. The data are very clear that:
                                The vaccines are safe for the vast majority of people, with the rare side effects described, and measures to treat them defined.
                                The vaccines dramatically reduce the risk of death and hospitalization, even against the delta variant.
                                If you choose not to get vaccinated, your best options are to follow the standard guidance of social distancing, mask use, and isolation following exposure, as these clearly reduce the spread of the virus.

                                That said, absolutely none of these is 100% effective, and it's best to protect your community and those you care about by taking a layered approach when needed.
                                "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                                Comment

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