So, the UK has officially shot itself in the foot...

[rogue06]

The main objective proposed by the leave campaigns in 2016 was essentially to have all the benefits of membership with none of the responsibilities. But then as explained earlier it was all things to all people.

Sounds a lot like Hope and Change.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

... and now will spend the next few years cutting off more toes. What a pointless exercise.

As there's no other threads on this, and as today the first day the UK has officially left the EU (dragging Scotland out against its wishes and putting a border in the Irish Sea, not to mention the other untold damage this has caused us) I figured I'd start this one. I believe there are at least a few posters who, if not British, then at least have a passing understanding of the damage we've done to ourselves.

Today is interesting - we now know with absolute clarity that the leave campaign was a lie, the promises were a lie, the reasons to leave were a lie, the benefits were a lie (though this was blindingly obvious to many of us for years). Though I am furious that my rights have been stolen from me, and that my country is now poorer and has lost so much face on the worlds stage - all of it utterly predictable and avoidable - I direct that burning resentment towards the liars and fraudsters who perpetrated this on my once great country. The people who were lied to - even if they haven't got to the stage of openly admitting this yet - I do not reserve my anger. After all, I have family members who were lied into voting to damage their country, my own mother amongst them.


The venting helps, even if I- like many others- have been a helpless bystander over the last 4 years. We can't even indulge in any cassandrafreude - that we've been proven to be utterly right in the scale, scope and magnitude of the lies told by our right-wing print media, this brexit government and other various hangers on is thin gruel.

What an awful day.


But, to invite comment and not just to rant and rave - does anyone who knows what's been happening over the last 4 years have any predictions for what comes next?

Will we see interruptions and problems around the borders in a few days time? (The British government waited until yesterday to release case studies of how the borders with the EU will actually operate - and lo & behold, a mountain of extra red tape and extra costs, yet another lie from what was promised)

Will the UK have signed trade deals with the rest of the world to compensate for the loss of EU trade by the end of the year? (Another promise made by the leavers during the referendum)

How long will it take for the deregulation of workers rights, environmental protections, food standards etc. which were promised by this brexit government would never happen but purposefully never put into law under the guise of cutting costs to business due to the increased costs of brexit?

Any other thoughts?

We will keep your star safely as you have asked. We miss you already.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I expect a slow drain on the economy, opposed to the bottom falling out on 2nd Jan. Much like the last 4 years really, with the devaluation of the pound.

With regards to Scotland or Ireland leaving, who knows really. I understand that it's harder for states to secede than Ireland or Scotland. If I had to guess I'd say it now makes it easier for Ireland to become one, due to the border in the Irish sea, but then northern Ireland is a basket case and also a huge money sink. Scotland is harder, as the UK government needs to essentially give them permission for another vote, and they won't for obvious reasons.

Well don't forget former Rhodesia under Ian Smith and its declaration of UDI.

As for Brexit this deal is not what was promised. The experts and their forecasts who were dismissed by the likes of Gove in 2016 appear now to have been rather prescient. However, I expect Die Clown and the rest of his circus of incompetents will blame it all on Covid-19.

The ridiculous claims of the Brexit/Leave party in 2016 about a frictionless and easy trade deal with us and how easily we in Europe would be so desperate to trade with England that we would cave to the British demands have been shown for exactly what they are, namely, arrogance, rose tinted notions about Britain's past, and dining out on those notions for the last 70 years. The belief that the vile Hun and the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys along with all the other Johnny Foreigners would once again submit to the British Bulldog were always total fantasies. And I do not believe for an instant that Johnson ever really contemplated crashing out without a deal despite the braggadocio and bluster. He and his fellows knew the impact that would have had on Britain even without Covid-19.

As it is the British now have the thinnest of deals. Artisanal and small-scale British fishermen are furious that they have not been given what they were promised. Despite the deal people in the UK will see their cost of living go up and with the combined impact of Covid-19 jobs disappear. All the while the prospect of Singapore on Thames with Freeports will permit even more international criminals and other shady characters to launder their ill-gotten gains.

The impact on Scottish farming and industry is going to push that nation further towards ceding from the Union and I wonder if we will eventually see a united Ireland given that Northern Ireland [as Scotland] voted to Remain. The Scottish Parliament elections in May should be interesting.

I listened to Peter Hennessy, a British historian, on the World Service the day after Brexit [24 June 2016] and what he said I considered worth preserving as a recording. Part of that transcript follows. Of course when he spoke he had no knowledge of the future 2017 or 2019 UK general elections.

"All we know for sure is that by 2025 the next general election beyond the one that is scheduled in 2020 unless there is one in the meantime, we will be out of Europe and I think that by then there is a very good chance that we will be shorn of Scotland so we will be in a very very different county, a very different strategic position in the world.

Robert Schuman, the French foreign minister that came up the plan with Jean Monnet, he illustrated it to a friend of mine by wrapping his arms around him and saying “Germany and France are in an embrace so tight now that they can never raise a fist against each other again. Everyone understood that after the terrible blood-letting of the second world war.

The Brits have never warmed to Europe, partly because we didn’t invent it. We are an internationally minded people but it came out of the heads of clever, Catholic, Left wing French bureaucrats and most Brits have got problems with at least three of those five.

The last two sentences are particularly pertinent for the jingoistic Brits who led the campaign and who will now have to [finally] realise that Britain is no longer a Great Power but simply a small island just off the coast of mainland Europe.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I haven't studied this issue so I am going by soundbites and what I'm reading here.

It seems most of your complaint is about the process rather than the outcome, the latter being light on specifics. I thought the objective was for Britain to keep Britain's wealth, and not let is be piddled away by mismanaged countries like Greece or poorer nations? If this is the case, the benefits of brexit will be apparent down the road when all of the dust settles.

You have the wrong country. You will possibly know of Tracey Ullman - here she is from a few years ago doing her Merkel impression and very funnily as well.

https://youtu.be/7ji5Th0bdRI

[EvoUK]

The last two sentences are particularly pertinent for the jingoistic Brits who led the campaign and who will now have to [finally] realise that Britain is no longer a Great Power but simply a small island just off the coast of mainland Europe.

There is a lot of truth to this. Unfortunately a lot people need to realise Britain's place in the world and that it is not longer a superpower, nor has it been one for quite some time.

One of its greatest strengths was actually its ability to punch above its weight (and its function as a global financial sector helped this too). It has now largely lost this ability, not least because the government demonstrated their untrustworthiness and willingness to consider unilaterally breaking international law when that is seen in Westminster as expedient.

If/When we ever do go grovelling back to the EU to sign on as a member it won't be as the heavyweight it was in early 2016, on a similar level to Germany or France. It'll be more like a Spain or an Italy. It can forget the opt-outs and everything it enjoyed previously. But it's way too early to talk about rejoining yet - apart from anything else, I think the question we should be asking is: what is in it for the EU27 to have Britain back? Forty plus years of lies, scapegoating and sending cranks like Nigel Farage and Ann Widdecombe to the EU Parliament? No thanks. I'm aware that it is another extension of English exceptionalism to assume we would be welcome back after the clustermuck of the last 4 years - not to mention our behaviour prior to that.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

There is a lot of truth to this. Unfortunately a lot people need to realise Britain's place in the world and that it is not longer a superpower, nor has it been one for quite some time.

One of its greatest strengths was actually its ability to punch above its weight (and its function as a global financial sector helped this too). It has now largely lost this ability, not least because the government demonstrated their untrustworthiness and willingness to consider unilaterally breaking international law when that is seen in Westminster as expedient.

If/When we ever do go grovelling back to the EU to sign on as a member it won't be as the heavyweight it was in early 2016, on a similar level to Germany or France. It'll be more like a Spain or an Italy. It can forget the opt-outs and everything it enjoyed previously. But it's way too early to talk about rejoining yet - apart from anything else, I think the question we should be asking is: what is in it for the EU27 to have Britain back? Forty plus years of lies, scapegoating and sending cranks like Nigel Farage and Ann Widdecombe to the EU Parliament? No thanks. I'm aware that it is another extension of English exceptionalism to assume we would be welcome back after the clustermuck of the last 4 years - not to mention our behaviour prior to that.

The shape of things to come? https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...uding-scruples. How convenient the pandemic is for ignoring parliamentary democracy.

It remains to be seen what happens with the British economy. A country that is overly dependent on its services industries is rather at risk of too many eggs in one basket.

[Ronson]

You have the wrong country. You will possibly know of Tracey Ullman - here she is from a few years ago doing her Merkel impression and very funnily as well.

https://youtu.be/7ji5Th0bdRI

Ullman had a show here in the 1980s and pulled off a perfect American accent. I thought she was an American at the time. The cartoon The Simpsons was a spin off from it.

Yes, Germany is propping up mismanaged countries even more so than Britain. Your German tax dollars are subsidizing early pensions in Greece.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Ullman had a show here in the 1980s and pulled off a perfect American accent. I thought she was an American at the time. The cartoon The Simpsons was a spin off from it.

Yes, Germany is propping up mismanaged countries even more so than Britain. Your German tax dollars are subsidizing early pensions in Greece.

She is an amazingly talented comedian. I read somewhere that she has a highly skilled make-up artist who works with her for those impersonations. The EU set conditions for Greece after its problems but with hindsight it was all too much too soon for that country.