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Trump considering pardons for 3.5 children, Guilliani

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Violating the site rules by accusing me of lying, without backing up your statement?
    Nope. You told an absolute lie about what Jesus condemned and another about what my "personal crusade".

    The onus is on you to prove both of your statements.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by thormas View Post

      Too true......
      That's twice in this thread where you've stepped into something that has nothing to do with you.

      Mind your own business.

      For that matter, Starlight did the same thing.


      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by mossrose View Post

        That's twice in this thread where you've stepped into something that has nothing to do with you.

        Mind your own business.........
        .
        No, and to paraphrase the great Marley, "Mankind is my business. The common welfare is my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, are all my business/"

        Such discussion are my business, so I am minding my business:+}

        And you're welcome.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by mossrose View Post

          Nope. You told an absolute lie about what Jesus condemned and another about what my "personal crusade".
          Again, give us the gospel chapter and verse. In which synoptic gospel, or was it John, do we have Jesus speaking on and condemning homosexuality?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post

            Nope. You told an absolute lie about what Jesus condemned and another about what my "personal crusade".

            The onus is on you to prove both of your statements.
            Jesus did not explicitly condemn either abortion or homosexuality. We have no words of his directly addressing either. What we do have is a woman caught in adultery and brought to him. And as they prepared themselves to stone her, he relied on their own conscience as he said 'he who is without sin, cast the first stone'. They all left, and he, the only one able to cast that stone based on the specified condition, did not cast it.

            The Jewish custom and culture was and is that until the newborn takes its first breath, it is not a living soul. This is the culture in the time of Christ and we have not one word of His taking that to task.

            So your claims about what Christ has said directly on these topics is simply false. Interestingly, the key issue for which you sacrifice character and morality to support Trump in, abortion, the scripture itself says literally NOTHING about directly. (Acknowledging that should NOT be taken as me supporting abortion on demand)

            But it has a lot to say about how to treat the poor, or the stranger in our land, or about the truth ( thou shalt NOT lie). And it has a lot to say about the consequences of a fool or evil person ruling the land.

            The number of souls dying per day in the US due to Trump's mismanagement of covid has many times this year exceeded the number of abortions per day and is likely to exceed that number for at least the next 2 or 3 weeks. And these are not fetus' in a womb with not even a brain yet. These are living, breathing, fully independent souls that have been snuffed out by nothing more than ignorance and political hatred.

            you have lost your way mossy in a sea of ignorance and fear foisted on you by the biggest con of the century.
            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 12-02-2020, 06:11 PM.
            He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

            "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

              Jesus did not explicitly condemn either abortion or homosexuality. We have no words of his directly addressing either. What we do have is a woman caught in adultery and brought to him. And as they prepared themselves to stone her, he relied on their own conscience as he said 'he who is without sin, cast the first stone'. They all left, and he, the only one able to cast that stone based on the specified condition, did not cast it.

              The Jewish custom and culture was and is that until the newborn takes its first breath, it is not a living soul. This is the culture in the time of Christ and we have not one word of His taking that to task.

              So your claims about what Christ has said directly on these topics is simply false. Interestingly, the key issue for which you sacrifice character and morality to support Trump in, abortion, the scripture itself says literally NOTHING about directly. (Acknowledging that should NOT be taken as me supporting abortion on demand)

              But it has a lot to say about how to treat the poor, or the stranger in our land, or about the truth ( thou shalt NOT lie). And it has a lot to say about the consequences of a fool or evil person ruling the land.

              The number of souls dying per day in the US due to Trump's mismanagement of covid has many times this year exceeded the number of abortions per day and is likely to exceed that number for at least the next 2 or 3 weeks. And these are not fetus' in a womb with not even a brain yet. These are living, breathing, fully independent souls that have been snuffed out by nothing more than ignorance and political hatred.

              you have lost your way mossy in a sea of ignorance and fear foisted on you by the biggest con of the century.
              Very helpful information: I did not know that about Judaism.

              Also spoken from the heart and with the compassion of a servant of the Christ.

              Thanks.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                Jesus did not explicitly condemn either abortion or homosexuality. We have no words of his directly addressing either. What we do have is a woman caught in adultery and brought to him. And as they prepared themselves to stone her, he relied on their own conscience as he said 'he who is without sin, cast the first stone'. They all left, and he, the only one able to cast that stone based on the specified condition, did not cast it.

                The Jewish custom and culture was and is that until the newborn takes its first breath, it is not a living soul. This is the culture in the time of Christ and we have not one word of His taking that to task.

                So your claims about what Christ has said directly on these topics is simply false. Interestingly, the key issue for which you sacrifice character and morality to support Trump in, abortion, the scripture itself says literally NOTHING about directly. (Acknowledging that should NOT be taken as me supporting abortion on demand)

                But it has a lot to say about how to treat the poor, or the stranger in our land, or about the truth ( thou shalt NOT lie). And it has a lot to say about the consequences of a fool or evil person ruling the land.

                The number of souls dying per day in the US due to Trump's mismanagement of covid has many times this year exceeded the number of abortions per day and is likely to exceed that number for at least the next 2 or 3 weeks. And these are not fetus' in a womb with not even a brain yet. These are living, breathing, fully independent souls that have been snuffed out by nothing more than ignorance and political hatred.

                you have lost your way mossy in a sea of ignorance and fear foisted on you by the biggest con of the century.
                I said not one word about Jesus explicitly condemning abortion. Your friend Starlight implied that since Jesus said nothing, then Jesus is obviously okay with it. Also homosexuality.

                But scripture as a whole condemns such things, and although many would like to pull out of context whatever fits their narrative, the truth of scripture is that God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit soundly condemns those things that the Democrats hold dear.

                Now, If SL and you and thormas knew anything about scripture apart from your favourite bits, then you would know that what I speak is true.

                Starlight lied about scripture and he lied about me.

                And by the way, it's disgusting for you to compare the number of abortions with the number of covid deaths. THAT is vile and incomparable.

                But you and your atheist and bizarre-believing so-called Christian friends can have at it. I am so sick of your hypocrisy and your love of accusing those you have called brethren. All of you will stand before God one day and He will judge you according to your unbelief.


                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                  I said not one word about Jesus explicitly condemning abortion. Your friend Starlight implied that since Jesus said nothing, then Jesus is obviously okay with it. Also homosexuality.

                  But scripture as a whole condemns such things, and although many would like to pull out of context whatever fits their narrative, the truth of scripture is that God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit soundly condemns those things that the Democrats hold dear.

                  Now, If SL and you and thormas knew anything about scripture apart from your favourite bits, then you would know that what I speak is true.

                  Starlight lied about scripture and he lied about me.

                  And by the way, it's disgusting for you to compare the number of abortions with the number of covid deaths. THAT is vile and incomparable.

                  But you and your atheist and bizarre-believing so-called Christian friends can have at it. I am so sick of your hypocrisy and your love of accusing those you have called brethren. All of you will stand before God one day and He will judge you according to your unbelief.
                  How is comparing covid deaths and abortion deaths 'vile'? Because it exposes the moral dissonance of a position that ignores trumps direct hand in those deaths?

                  As for what the scripture says about abortion, it literally says nothing mossy. Most conservative Christian anti abortion positions are derived from certain basic principles surrounding the sanctity of human life coupled with the belief that the soul is infused at conception. They are not the direct teaching of scripture.

                  Homosexuality is a different issue, and I was not claiming otherwise,, except that Christ did not deal with it. However, the only comparable thing He did deal with in terms of sexual sin, adultery, He dealt with in compassion and in fact contrary to the moral law and consequence demanded by scripture.

                  And there is a big lesson there, if you can see it.
                  He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                  "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    The pardon power needs to be removed from the constitution. It makes the US look like a banana republic.
                    Are France and Germany banana republics for having presidential pardon power also?

                    Now don't get me wrong, I don't care for the pardon power either--or perhaps more accurately, I dislike the fact there is no real check or limitation on it, such as congress having the ability to override it--but it's not something that just the US is alone among first world countries in having. (to be fair, some that have it require the agreement of additional individuals beyond the President)

                    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                    I would be somewhat sympathetic to an argument that the 14th Amendment should be interpreted to implicitly extend Presidential pardon powers to the States in the same way that it explicitly extends Bill of Rights protections.
                    Such a claim, as far as I can tell, has no basis in either the history nor the text of the Fourteenth Amendment.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                      I said not one word about Jesus explicitly condemning abortion. Your friend Starlight implied that since Jesus said nothing, then Jesus is obviously okay with it. Also homosexuality.

                      But scripture as a whole condemns such things, and although many would like to pull out of context whatever fits their narrative, the truth of scripture is that God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit soundly condemns those things that the Democrats hold dear.

                      Now, If SL and you and thormas knew anything about scripture apart from your favourite bits, then you would know that what I speak is true.

                      Starlight lied about scripture and he lied about me.

                      And by the way, it's disgusting for you to compare the number of abortions with the number of covid deaths. THAT is vile and incomparable.

                      But you and your atheist and bizarre-believing so-called Christian friends can have at it. I am so sick of your hypocrisy and your love of accusing those you have called brethren. All of you will stand before God one day and He will judge you according to your unbelief.
                      Yet no matter how it began, Starlight's statement about Jesus was accurate. And as you have admitted, Jesus "said nothing," he did not explicitly (or implicitly) condemn homosexuality. Plus, an interesting point was brought up about Judaism and abortion: Jesus did not explicitly condemn abortion either, Actually, it is apparent that Jesus also did not make any implicit judgement on either. And SL was talking specifically about Jesus.........so he did not lie.

                      A month or so we had a full blown discussion about the Bible and homosexuality and it is indeed questionable what exactly the Biblical stance is on all homosexual activity and it indicates nothing on homosexual orientation (one cannot be blamed for their sexual orientation). And many of the comments were not out of context at all, simply an honest, critical reading of what was written. The truth of scripture is that Jesus said nothing about either homosexuality or abortion. You are reading into the gospels what is not on the lips of Jesus. In addition, many Christian citizens of the USA recognize that we were not created a Christian nation and there is a separation of church and state - so one's religious views and values cannot be imposed as law on others. What you have said is simply inaccurate about Jesus and you also seem to misunderstand the US constitution.

                      Bottom line, Starlight did not lie.

                      Why is it that some who call themselves Christians are the first and most vocal is judging others when their Lord said that such judgement is God's? It seems they pick and choose those bits that make them feel what .......superior? Yet they are not. And a number of these same people talk about standing before God 'some day' ......never realizing that we all stand before him on a daily basis and calling others names or liars or bizarre, or so-called Christians or their beliefs disgusting .........is simply to judge yourself before the 2 great commandments of God and the way of the Christ and be found wanting.
                      Last edited by thormas; 12-02-2020, 08:02 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        It isn't used.

                        No governor general in New Zealand's history has ever used any of the unusual powers of their office.
                        Never? Never ever? You sure?

                        Arthur Allan Thomas. Pardoned.

                        And then a few years later accused of rape and indecent assault.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                          Are France and Germany banana republics for having presidential pardon power also?
                          Perhaps the line should be drawn at its use for partisan political purposes, or to personally benefit the user.

                          When I visited Vanuatu, I learned that as part of their ongoing effort to clean up the extensive corruption in the country, they had hired an international prosecutor to come and investigate, and they had brought cases against the Vice-President and half a dozen government ministers. When the President went to visit France, the Vice President became acting President, and used the Pardon power to pardon himself and all the accused ministers.

                          America's in danger of looking like that to the rest of the world.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
                            Never? Never ever? You sure?

                            Arthur Allan Thomas. Pardoned.
                            There is a governmental process by which the justice department can investigate individual cases, and officially recommend they be pardoned. This generally occurs only when something is found to have gone wrong with the original case (e.g. in the case you mentioned, it was discovered police had fabricated evidence, and a governmental inquiry recommended a pardon which the government decided to enact). Technically the governor general does the final sign-off on all such things, but he is not actually the one that makes the decision in the first place.

                            Were he to start making decisions in the first place, that would be a problem, and that has never happened. He certainly does not write pardons to benefit his own personal friends the way US presidents such as Clinton and Trump have done.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                              Are France and Germany banana republics for having presidential pardon power also?

                              Now don't get me wrong, I don't care for the pardon power either--or perhaps more accurately, I dislike the fact there is no real check or limitation on it, such as congress having the ability to override it--but it's not something that just the US is alone among first world countries in having. (to be fair, some that have it require the agreement of additional individuals beyond the President)


                              Such a claim, as far as I can tell, has no basis in either the history nor the text of the Fourteenth Amendment.
                              I also am aware of none. But every great idea has a beginning.
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Nationalist.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                Jesus did not explicitly condemn either abortion or homosexuality. We have no words of his directly addressing either.
                                I agree on abortion, but disagree on homosexuality. There are two relevant passages on that topic.

                                Matt 19:12
                                "For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others--and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
                                Pop culture today tends to portray eunuchs as castrated men who served in harems, but that portrayal comes from the Muslim Ottoman empire of the 16th and 17th centuries. "Eunuchs" in the ancient world was a fairly wide term that included gay, asexual, and transgender people, as well as any physical damage to the genitals - i.e. any man who wasn't going to father offspring for whatever reason. Some sources portray eunuchs as sexually promiscuous with other men.

                                Jesus's point in this passage seems to be to encourage missionaries to make the sacrifice of being childless in order to put their entire focus onto promoting the kingdom of heaven rather than family. Obviously the wider society of the time viewed children as a blessing, and having heirs to continue your name and family was viewed positively, so those who didn't have children, either through inability, lack of desire, being gay, or self-sacrifice for the kingdom of heaven, would be viewed as lacking in that respect. But Jesus' tone of the passage is clearly positive toward eunuchs. Also, the assumption that's generally made about Jesus is that he wasn't married himself and didn't have children, so he would be in the eunuch category too (no, I'm not asserting he was gay, just that the eunuch category covered asexual people as well).

                                Overall I would consider this statement as implying a generally neutral or positive attitude toward eunuchs, and thus to gay and transgender and asexual people who were three among several groups covered by that category.

                                The other relevant passage is the healing of the Centurion's Beloved Servant in Matthew 8 / Luke 7. We know from other sources that Romans very commonly had sexual relationships with their slaves, including same-sex relationships. The description of the servant as "beloved", most likely indicates that we are meant to infer such as relationship here and that this is why the Centurion is particularly eager to seek a healer for this particular slave. Jesus' response is 100% positive, and the Centurion gets given some of the highest praise we ever hear from Jesus. If Jesus was at all anti-gay he surely would have asked if this was really a gay relationship and if there was immorality occurring. But instead in this passage, when presented with an apparent gay relationship, Jesus responds with nothing but positivity and zero condemnation.

                                Outside of the gospels there are a handful of biblical passages that might, or might not, speak to homosexuality, but within the gospels these two passages seem to me to be the only relevant ones on the topic and they both seem to portray Jesus having a neutral or positive attitude toward gay people.

                                abortion, the scripture itself says literally NOTHING about directly. (Acknowledging that should NOT be taken as me supporting abortion on demand)
                                I agree with you that Jesus, in the gospels, says nothing on that topic. And in my statement to Mossrose, which she ludicrously labelled a lie, my point was simply that there are no words in the gospels from Jesus that show him to be against homosexuality or abortion.

                                But I would point to two passages in the bible that seem to speak to the topic of abortion.

                                Exodus 21 appears to speak about the topic of a man hitting a pregnant woman. There is a bit of ambiguity, but the gist of it seems to be that if she loses the baby as a result, there is a monetary fine as if it is equivalent to damage to her husband's property. Whereas if the woman herself dies, then it is considered murder and the death penalty applies. If the fetus is being considered the husband's property under the law, the implication is that the husband himself can destroy it if he wants just as he can dispose of any of his own property.

                                Numbers 5 describes what is called the Ordeal of the Bitter Water. There is a bit of ambiguity, but what seems to be described is a supernatural testing of women who are accused of adultery, where they are fed an abortifacient (the bitter water) and a prayer for God's judgement is spoken, and if the fetus miscarries they were guilty of adultery, and if not then not. This essentially appears to be biblically commanded abortion, and without the woman's approval at that.

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