Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Fun Fact:

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Stoic View Post
    In reality, the reason for keeping the electoral college around is that it allows the Republicans to win the presidency with a minority of the electorate.
    Bingo!
    America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
      Bingo!
      You guys really need to read up on why the Electoral College was founded.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        You guys really need to read up on why the Electoral College was founded.
        No, I don't, mate. I know very well, because I have read up on it. There were a number of reasons, and the primary reason was that nobody thought it was too horrible an idea. Nobody wanted it; it was a compromise between those who wanted the states to choose the President and those who wanted the popular vote. It's more convoluted than that, and there are reasons each group did not want the others' suggestions, but in sum, that's it.

        Sadly, why it was founded is of little but historical interest. It's not used today anything like the founding fathers thought it would be. Since pretty much the establishment of political parties, it has not been used anything like it was supposed to be.

        So it's not serving the purpose that it was established to. Its biggest effect today is to give disproportionate weight to the votes of people in smaller, more rural states. Which are traditionally Republican-dominated. Populous states, less Republican-dominated, have less weight for their voters. This is why the Republicans are so opposed to getting rid of it. They know that if they did, the disproportionate weight of their voters would go away, and everybody's vote would have equal weight. Which would not be good for them. Clinton would have beaten Trump and Gore would have beaten Bush. Since '92, there would have been only one Republican President (Bush, during what is now his second term). In their situation I might fight against the will of the people as well. Over the last thirty years as far as the President is concerned, the country has overwhelmingly leaned to the left. And the only thing stopping the will of the people from taking effect is the Electoral College.

        America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
          No, I don't, mate. I know very well, because I have read up on it. There were a number of reasons, and the primary reason was that nobody thought it was too horrible an idea. Nobody wanted it; it was a compromise between those who wanted the states to choose the President and those who wanted the popular vote. It's more convoluted than that, and there are reasons each group did not want the others' suggestions, but in sum, that's it.

          Sadly, why it was founded is of little but historical interest. It's not used today anything like the founding fathers thought it would be. Since pretty much the establishment of political parties, it has not been used anything like it was supposed to be.

          So it's not serving the purpose that it was established to. Its biggest effect today is to give disproportionate weight to the votes of people in smaller, more rural states. Which are traditionally Republican-dominated. Populous states, less Republican-dominated, have less weight for their voters. This is why the Republicans are so opposed to getting rid of it. They know that if they did, the disproportionate weight of their voters would go away, and everybody's vote would have equal weight. Which would not be good for them. Clinton would have beaten Trump and Gore would have beaten Bush. Since '92, there would have been only one Republican President (Bush, during what is now his second term). In their situation I might fight against the will of the people as well. Over the last thirty years as far as the President is concerned, the country has overwhelmingly leaned to the left. And the only thing stopping the will of the people from taking effect is the Electoral College.
          It was a compromise between the small states and the large states so that the latter states couldn't run roughshod over the former in the same manner the way the House and Senate were set up. It was instrumental in keeping the country together after the Revolution rather than have each state go its separate and factitious way like the German states of the 18th century or the South American republics in the 19th century did.


          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            It was a compromise between the small states and the large states so that the latter states couldn't run roughshod over the former in the same manner the way the House and Senate were set up. It was instrumental in keeping the country together after the Revolution rather than have each state go its separate and factitious way like the German states of the 18th century or the South American republics in the 19th century did.
            I won't get into an argument about how accurate is, because again it doesn't matter. It's not being used the way the founders intended/expected it to be. The reasons they established are irrelevant to what purpose it serves now. And right now its primary purpose is to handicap voters in non-rural states so that their votes don't count as much, so that Republicans have a better chance in Presidential elections.

            America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              You guys really need to read up on why the Electoral College was founded.
              James Madison said that it was made because it meant that states who disenfranchised their population--such as, for example, enslaving them--wouldn't have to lose much power. As he explained during the Constitutional Convention:

              "There was one difficulty, however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to the fewest objections."

              http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage...061&linkText=1

              "States that have a lot of slaves would lose power in a direction election" doesn't seem to be a particularly relevant concern at the moment.

              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              It was a compromise between the small states and the large states so that the latter states couldn't run roughshod over the former in the same manner the way the House and Senate were set up. It was instrumental in keeping the country together after the Revolution rather than have each state go its separate and factitious way like the German states of the 18th century or the South American republics in the 19th century did.
              This is a common claim, but I have yet to see a single person who claims this cite actual proof that it was a compromise in order to achieve this goal.

              Indeed, I looked at #68 of The Federalist Papers, which is devoted to explaining the reason for the method of choosing the president. I saw nothing whatsoever there concerning small states vs. large states; its defense is that the men chosen to be electors would be those best equipped to judge the matter and decide who would be the best president.

              So can we have some quotes from those involved in the making of the Constitution stating that this issue of large and small states was actually a factor in their decision regarding the electoral college? They may exist, but again I have never seen anyone provide them.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                James Madison said that it was made because it meant that states who disenfranchised their population--such as, for example, enslaving them--wouldn't have to lose much power. As he explained during the Constitutional Convention:

                "There was one difficulty, however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes. The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty and seemed on the whole to be liable to the fewest objections."

                http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage...061&linkText=1

                "States that have a lot of slaves would lose power in a direction election" doesn't seem to be a particularly relevant concern at the moment.


                This is a common claim, but I have yet to see a single person who claims this cite actual proof that it was a compromise in order to achieve this goal.

                Indeed, I looked at #68 of The Federalist Papers, which is devoted to explaining the reason for the method of choosing the president. I saw nothing whatsoever there concerning small states vs. large states; its defense is that the men chosen to be electors would be those best equipped to judge the matter and decide who would be the best president.

                So can we have some quotes from those involved in the making of the Constitution stating that this issue of large and small states was actually a factor in their decision regarding the electoral college? They may exist, but again I have never seen anyone provide them.
                There were those who wanted the president be appointed by Congress and those who wanted a direct election by popular vote. The Electoral system was the compromise. The biggest fear of the latter expressed during the Constitutional Convention was of the president becoming a dictator. I'll have to go back and look up the arguments to remember the details but be that as it may our Founding Fathers really loathed the idea of Democracy which is why they set up a Constitutional Republic.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  There were those who wanted the president be appointed by Congress and those who wanted a direct election by popular vote. The Electoral system was the compromise. The biggest fear of the latter expressed during the Constitutional Convention was of the president becoming a dictator. I'll have to go back and look up the arguments to remember the details but be that as it may our Founding Fathers really loathed the idea of Democracy which is why they set up a Constitutional Republic.
                  IIRC, Hamilton floated the idea of creating a new royal family through George Washington. Assuming he wasn't joking.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    There were those who wanted the president be appointed by Congress and those who wanted a direct election by popular vote. The Electoral system was the compromise. The biggest fear of the latter expressed during the Constitutional Convention was of the president becoming a dictator. I'll have to go back and look up the arguments to remember the details but be that as it may our Founding Fathers really loathed the idea of Democracy which is why they set up a Constitutional Republic.
                    The electoral college may have been a compromise between those who wanted the president chosen by congress and those who wanted it by popular vote; however, that is a completely different idea from it being a compromise between large and small states, which was what was alleged.

                    If you have proof of the latter, I would be very interested in seeing it!

                    Comment

                    Related Threads

                    Collapse

                    Topics Statistics Last Post
                    Started by seer, Yesterday, 06:43 PM
                    13 responses
                    61 views
                    0 likes
                    Last Post Sparko
                    by Sparko
                     
                    Started by eider, Yesterday, 05:05 PM
                    14 responses
                    39 views
                    1 like
                    Last Post eider
                    by eider
                     
                    Started by Sparko, Yesterday, 11:48 AM
                    20 responses
                    143 views
                    0 likes
                    Last Post Roy
                    by Roy
                     
                    Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, Yesterday, 05:31 AM
                    8 responses
                    62 views
                    0 likes
                    Last Post Sparko
                    by Sparko
                     
                    Started by Cow Poke, 03-02-2021, 02:54 PM
                    72 responses
                    336 views
                    1 like
                    Last Post Sparko
                    by Sparko
                     
                    Working...
                    X