What Would a Civil War Look Like Today?

[mikewhitney]

Your playing dodge ball. Read the article again it is not vague it is specific and detailed as to the rise of extreme right and racist organizations in the military.

I saw what you posted. Like I said. Their information was vague and they relied in part on the SPLC, which is an extremist left organization which makes spurious claims.

Your article was similar to Hypatia's one about Trump being like a Nazi -- maybe not quite as bad as hers. There is not enough information here to tell anything except possibly the opinions the writer had.

[shunyadragon]

I saw what you posted. Like I said. Their information was vague and they relied in part on the SPLC, which is an extremist left organization which makes spurious claims.

Your article was similar to Hypatia's one about Trump being like a Nazi -- maybe not quite as bad as hers. There is not enough information here to tell anything except possibly the opinions the writer had.

Your playing dodge ball. Read the article again it is not vague it is specific and detailed as to the rise of extreme right and racist organizations in the military.

Opinions not involved the article cited research and studies done by the military.

There is a real threat from these paramilitary groups when Biden is nominated. The article gave specific exanples of members of the military planning violence.

[mikewhitney]

I ran out of edit time

Your playing dodge ball. Read the article again it is not vague it is specific and detailed as to the rise of extreme right and racist organizations in the military.

I saw what you posted. Like I said. Their information was vague and they relied in part on the SPLC, which is an extremist left organization which makes spurious claims.

Your article was similar to Hypatia's one about Trump being like a Nazi -- maybe not quite as bad as hers. There is not enough information here to tell anything except possibly the opinions the writer had.

The article refers to some instances of destructive people the military says has ties with extremist right groups. (I'm not sure why they did not say extremist left, either.) One guy was not even identified with any group.

Known as Nebor, Maj. Jeff Poole was a fixture on the Army subreddit, where a group of moderators noticed his activity on other subreddits and used his information to compile a 75-page report for Army Criminal Investigative Command on his activity.
Poole did not appear to associate with any organized group,

It is mainly an article about several individuals but the author is pushing this as if this were a big problem. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. He just has not given useful information to make a point.

The goal seems to be to promote more data collection and more reports. This could just be a witch hunt, a waste of tax dollars, another full-time job for a bureaucrat.

[mikewhitney]

Your playing dodge ball. Read the article again it is not vague it is specific and detailed as to the rise of extreme right and racist organizations in the military.

Opinions not involved the article cited research and studies done by the military.

There is a real threat from these paramilitary groups when Biden is nominated. The article gave specific exanples of members of the military planning violence.

I skimmed through it to see if I missed anything before -- or missed the clues that might support your statements. While we do have specific examples of individuals, these cases are not identified with widespread behavior in the military. So the author failed to make his point.

There is a study linked in the article about the impressions of the soldiers. Some of this is that blacks saw people with racist or extremist behavior or that such people had viewed websites like this. However, there are no details what type of activity or websites are deemed objectionable. Again, we are left with insufficient details of this report to make any conclusions.

Maybe there is something more specific that you can point to.

[shunyadragon]

I skimmed through it to see if I missed anything before -- or missed the clues that might support your statements. While we do have specific examples of individuals, these cases are not identified with widespread behavior in the military. So the author failed to make his point.

There is a study linked in the article about the impressions of the soldiers. Some of this is that blacks saw people with racist or extremist behavior or that such people had viewed websites like this. However, there are no details what type of activity or websites are deemed objectionable. Again, we are left with insufficient details of this report to make any conclusions.

Maybe there is something more specific that you can point to.

Your playing dodge ball. Read the article again it is not vague it is specific and detailed as to the rise of extreme right and racist organizations in the military.

Opinions not involved the article cited research and studies done by the military.

There is a real threat from these paramilitary groups when Biden is nominated. The article gave specific exanples of members of the military planning violence.

Besides you have not given one reference that Antifa is active in the military.

[mikewhitney]

[QUOTE=shunyadragon;n1208200]

Your playing dodge ball. Read the article again it is not vague it is specific and detailed as to the rise of extreme right and racist organizations in the military.

Opinions not involved the article cited research and studies done by the military.

There is a real threat from these paramilitary groups when Biden is nominated. The article gave specific exanples of members of the military planning violence.
[QUOTE]

What? You want me to read your mind in order to figure out what specifically you found that shows that this theory of a white-supremacism is an issue in the military?

How is that dodge ball? It seems that you have assumed an argument for this point even though the author has not provided evidence to show significant white-supremacism or whatever in this article.

Another clue about the problem is that the middle of the article refers to a report: "Jones and two co-authors released a report June 17, “The Escalating Terrorism Problem in the United States," The article kind of discusses ideologies that could be problematic but the article does not ties this into the military situation.

The silliest thing you have said is that white-supremacists would go against their leader, Biden.

Besides you have not given one reference that Antifa is active in the military.

I have no idea how this statement relates to the discussion.

[Ronson]

... even though the author has not provided evidence to show significant white-supremacism or whatever in this article.

They only demand evidence for some things. Other things they happily believe based on truthiness.

[mikewhitney]

They only demand evidence for some things. Other things they happily believe based on truthiness.

I don't even see how Shuny's article applies to the discussion. Somehow he thought the military must be full of Antifa and BLM soldiers if military takes action against riots in the cities.

Worse yet, his article speaks of rank and file soldiers rather than the leaders who make decisions. So what relevance is there (in this discussion) about the rank and file?

[Andius]

There have been news stories about the military brass not being aligned with Trump. So if Trump stays President for the next four years, we might have a military leadership on the "other" side.

You are correct that the military brass is not precisely content with Trumps leadership, however I have difficulty finding genuine division of opinion within the military itself, especially amongst the upper rankers. In the scenario of Trump remaining, I could see the generals twisting Trump's arm in some policy decision. Considering Trump didn't have the tactical and mental depth to question and explore the proposals military leadership gives like Obama, Bush jr, Clinton, and Bush sr. did, why bother to let him deliberate.

One thing the military might do is to bring in microwave or sound devices to create pain in crowds. But with the military, you also would have likely use of firearms in many situations.

I guess that might should National Guard not be able to quell uprisings. No shortage of options within the armed forces.

[Andius]

The military being the glue that the holds the US together is a bad sign for us. Look at how many other countries where the military has come in to "save" the people from inept civilian government. Egypt and Peru immediately come to mind. I'm sure if missed many especially in Africa.

Mmhhh, I would argue that is not necessarily a bad sign, because it is perfectly normal for an armed force to maintain the integrity of a modern nation-State, be it a developed and strong State like Germany or weak ones like Egypt and Perú that you mentioned (good examples by the way). And to be fair to Africa, Nigeria and C.A.R. respective militaries are woefully unable to maintain the national integrity, but you also have admirable powerhouses like Ghana and Botswana that are stable and strong.
Personally, I wouldn't be too pessimistic of it being a bad sign. At worst, it would be if the military alone is what is keeping it together. All I am saying is that it is the primary thing keeping it together, but there is a whole slew of other factors keeping the USA united.

[mikewhitney]

You are correct that the military brass is not precisely content with Trumps leadership, however I have difficulty finding genuine division of opinion within the military itself, especially amongst the upper rankers. In the scenario of Trump remaining, I could see the generals twisting Trump's arm in some policy decision. Considering Trump didn't have the tactical and mental depth to question and explore the proposals military leadership gives like Obama, Bush jr, Clinton, and Bush sr. did, why bother to let him deliberate.

Your point depends on their being strategic beneficial reasons for us to be in many of these occupied areas. However, it is not supposed to be the military that decides these things. Congress should decide whether we have a continuing need to be in these places.

I guess that might should National Guard not be able to quell uprisings. No shortage of options within the armed forces.

I'm not sure how much difference there is between the National Guard and the Army and Air Force. I could have added more levels to the process.

[Maranatha]

I think at least most of the military would robotically follow orders of the state because they're trained that way. Though I believe they'd still be at a huge disadvantage. Not only would they have to worry about collateral damage and the bad PR that would have on the state (though they do control the media, so there's that), but the grave psychological effect it would have on them having to fight their own citizens. Look at the effects they experience just fighting against insurgents in foreign countries -- suicides off the chart.

I think you have to start separating militaries. The states would retain their guards. States would decide what they would do.

I don't think 'robotically' following is a bad thing, and there is no defense of either side of this argument so you can poke holes in any speculation.

I think we have a pattern of likely arrangements from the first civil war.

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=mikewhitney;n1208201]

<snipe>

failure to respond.

I have no idea how this statement relates to the discussion.

You made a claim of Antifa in the military, and have failed to back up this claim with references. I backed up my claim with a reliable reference and you have provied nothing.

Still waiting . . .

[mikewhitney]

[QUOTE=shunyadragon;n1208255]

failure to respond.



You made a claim of Antifa in the military, and have failed to back up this claim with references. I backed up my claim with a reliable reference and you have provied nothing.

Still waiting . . .

Interesting. I have never had that thought and never put in this discussion.

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=mikewhitney;n1208201]

I have no idea how this statement relates to the discussion.

Your response her wasin response to my post in reference to the military and extremism.

Right. There are the racist Antifa and BLM who would be against the extreme freedom lovers. I suspect this division has been orchestrated. Most Democrats are not as extreme leftists nor are most Republicans extreme promoters of freedom.