What Would a Civil War Look Like Today?

[seanD]

There's a huge problem with the military getting involved. Street fighting (assuming that would happen) would create lots of civilian casualties. And people in the US have family all over the place, and friends of family. In the Civil War you had Sherman routing and burning Atlanta, which was only possible because he and all of his men were from the North. We have a fully integrated military now. And would the military want to create much damage to buildings and infrastructure since this is their country and their infrastructure? I can't envision very deep military involvement.

I don't underestimate the power of brainwashing. Look at how police acted against ordinary citizens during the shutdown, and police aren't trained to be obedient nearly as much as military personnel. I also don't underestimate the power of the MSM to demonize the groups fighting against the state. But for the most part, I agree.

[Andius]

There's a huge problem with the military getting involved. Street fighting (assuming that would happen) would create lots of civilian casualties. And people in the US have family all over the place, and friends of family. In the Civil War you had Sherman routing and burning Atlanta, which was only possible because he and all of his men were from the North. We have a fully integrated military now. And would the military want to create much damage to buildings and infrastructure since this is their country and their infrastructure? I can't envision very deep military involvement.

And to be quite frank, the US armed forces show no signs (that I am aware of) of any kind of division or sedition like the kind that kickstarted the U.S. civil war. Any infighting amongst civilians would likely be quickly put down, the National Guard is that efficient. Wether the soldier will be loyal to Washington D.C. or personal family, who knows, but you can be sure civilian death or not, Washington D.C. will not tolerate any kind of uprising, and will hurt and kill anyone to drive the message home to not challenge it.

I would also argue cultural and ideological divisions within USA are secondary to contributing the breakup of the USA. The United States Armed Forces are what ultimately keep the USA glued together, and no amount of civilian division or uprising will split the nation as long as the U.S. Armed Forces are institutionally intact (It is a monstrous juggernaut of an institution, virtually impervious as it is). Any "envisioning" of a civil war has to take into account the hypothetical conception of the loyalties amongst the armed forces within for any kind of bonafide civil war to even break out in the first place, do you have any concrete evidence or knowledge of any present officers or elements of the armed forces that compromise (even hypothetically) the integrity of the institution? That would give a greater plausibility when imagining what a contemporary U.S. civil war would look like.

[shunyadragon]

. . . not like in the movies.

[mikewhitney]

And to be quite frank, the US armed forces show no signs (that I am aware of) of any kind of division or sedition like the kind that kickstarted the U.S. civil war. Any infighting amongst civilians would likely be quickly put down, the National Guard is that efficient. Wether the soldier will be loyal to Washington D.C. or personal family, who knows, but you can be sure civilian death or not, Washington D.C. will not tolerate any kind of uprising, and will hurt and kill anyone to drive the message home to not challenge it.

I would also argue cultural and ideological divisions within USA are secondary to contributing the breakup of the USA. The United States Armed Forces are what ultimately keep the USA glued together, and no amount of civilian division or uprising will split the nation as long as the U.S. Armed Forces are institutionally intact (It is a monstrous juggernaut of an institution, virtually impervious as it is). Any "envisioning" of a civil war has to take into account the hypothetical conception of the loyalties amongst the armed forces within for any kind of bonafide civil war to even break out in the first place, do you have any concrete evidence or knowledge of any present officers or elements of the armed forces that compromise (even hypothetically) the integrity of the institution? That would give a greater plausibility when imagining what a contemporary U.S. civil war would look like.

There have been news stories about the military brass not being aligned with Trump. So if Trump stays President for the next four years, we might have a military leadership on the "other" side.

One thing the military might do is to bring in microwave or sound devices to create pain in crowds. But with the military, you also would have likely use of firearms in many situations.

[Thoughtful Monk]

And to be quite frank, the US armed forces show no signs (that I am aware of) of any kind of division or sedition like the kind that kickstarted the U.S. civil war. Any infighting amongst civilians would likely be quickly put down, the National Guard is that efficient. Wether the soldier will be loyal to Washington D.C. or personal family, who knows, but you can be sure civilian death or not, Washington D.C. will not tolerate any kind of uprising, and will hurt and kill anyone to drive the message home to not challenge it.

I would also argue cultural and ideological divisions within USA are secondary to contributing the breakup of the USA. The United States Armed Forces are what ultimately keep the USA glued together, and no amount of civilian division or uprising will split the nation as long as the U.S. Armed Forces are institutionally intact (It is a monstrous juggernaut of an institution, virtually impervious as it is). Any "envisioning" of a civil war has to take into account the hypothetical conception of the loyalties amongst the armed forces within for any kind of bonafide civil war to even break out in the first place, do you have any concrete evidence or knowledge of any present officers or elements of the armed forces that compromise (even hypothetically) the integrity of the institution? That would give a greater plausibility when imagining what a contemporary U.S. civil war would look like.

The military being the glue that the holds the US together is a bad sign for us. Look at how many other countries where the military has come in to "save" the people from inept civilian government. Egypt and Peru immediately come to mind. I'm sure if missed many especially in Africa.

[shunyadragon]

There have been news stories about the military brass not being aligned with Trump. So if Trump stays President for the next four years, we might have a military leadership on the "other" side.

One thing the military might do is to bring in microwave or sound devices to create pain in crowds. But with the military, you also would have likely use of firearms in many situations.

As individuals there has always been officers on different sides, but in recent history the military remains unite behind the nation. Of course, the Civil War divided the USA along stark North South lines which had been their from many years there is no such state, regional or political division in the military ranks of the officers today.

Biden won, so there would only be extreme right, and racist groups in rebellion.

[Ronson]

And to be quite frank, the US armed forces show no signs (that I am aware of) of any kind of division or sedition like the kind that kickstarted the U.S. civil war. Any infighting amongst civilians would likely be quickly put down, the National Guard is that efficient. Wether the soldier will be loyal to Washington D.C. or personal family, who knows, but you can be sure civilian death or not, Washington D.C. will not tolerate any kind of uprising, and will hurt and kill anyone to drive the message home to not challenge it.

I would also argue cultural and ideological divisions within USA are secondary to contributing the breakup of the USA. The United States Armed Forces are what ultimately keep the USA glued together, and no amount of civilian division or uprising will split the nation as long as the U.S. Armed Forces are institutionally intact (It is a monstrous juggernaut of an institution, virtually impervious as it is). Any "envisioning" of a civil war has to take into account the hypothetical conception of the loyalties amongst the armed forces within for any kind of bonafide civil war to even break out in the first place, do you have any concrete evidence or knowledge of any present officers or elements of the armed forces that compromise (even hypothetically) the integrity of the institution? That would give a greater plausibility when imagining what a contemporary U.S. civil war would look like.

I don't believe the military would even be ordered to participate. It would be too complicated; the benefits would not outweigh the costs. Yes, national guard perhaps, for defensive purposes.

[Ronson]

There have been news stories about the military brass not being aligned with Trump. So if Trump stays President for the next four years, we might have a military leadership on the "other" side.

You mean like when they ignored the troop drawdown in the ME that he ordered? I haven't heard if that story was confirmed or not.

[mikewhitney]

As individuals there has always been officers on different sides, but in recent history the military remains unite behind the nation. Of course, the Civil War divided the USA along stark North South lines which had been their from many years there is no such state, regional or political division in the military ranks of the officers today.

Biden won, so there would only be extreme right, and racist groups in rebellion.

Right. There are the racist Antifa and BLM who would be against the extreme freedom lovers. I suspect this division has been orchestrated. Most Democrats are not as extreme leftists nor are most Republicans extreme promoters of freedom.

[firstfloor]

A civil war would never get off the ground because the government would rapidly mobilise the police supported by the army as required to suppress the violence by use of overwhelming force.

[mikewhitney]

You mean like when they ignored the troop drawdown in the ME that he ordered? I haven't heard if that story was confirmed or not.

I know. It is hard to know what the realities are. We really have to find sources that can prove ideas sufficiently. Too much reliance on anonymous sources is a similar reason for concern.

[Ronson]

I know. It is hard to know what the realities are. We really have to find sources that can prove ideas sufficiently. Too much reliance on anonymous sources is a similar reason for concern.

Trump has been a disappointment on that level. He doesn't explain to the public why he fires people (something specific or what?) and he doesn't address rumors like this. The fact he hasn't said anything on the drawdown story makes me believe it isn't true.

[shunyadragon]

Right. There are the racist Antifa and BLM who would be against the extreme freedom lovers. I suspect this division has been orchestrated. Most Democrats are not as extreme leftists nor are most Republicans extreme promoters of freedom.

There are numerous extreme right and racist organization members in the ranks

Source: https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/06/23/far-right-groups-like-the-boogaloo-and-o9a-continue-to-attract-troops-and-veterans/

Far-right groups like the “Boogaloo” and “O9A” continue to attract troops and veterans



As protesters have taken to the streets this month to call for racial justice and police reform, in the wake of the alleged murder of George Floyd by Minneapolis police, another movement has made headlines for all the wrong reasons. Its name is Boogaloo.

Two weeks after the FBI arrested an Army reservist and two veterans, one of the Navy and the other the Air Force, for planning to incite violence at a Las Vegas protest, an active-duty airman shot and killed a federal security officer in Oakland, California.

All four, according to their online activity, identified with the far-right group, which is loosely tied to anti-government and white-supremacist beliefs, but mostly advocates for an armed insurrection― of whatever kind― in general.

Largely brushed off by veterans and service members as a group of has-beens and wannabes, the Boogaloo archetype that emerged in memes in the past decade has taken hold in the violent-extremist corners of the internet.

In both the white-power and anti-government “communities, ‘boogaloo’ was frequently associated with racist violence and, in many cases, was an explicit call for race war,” according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. “Today the term is regularly deployed by white nationalists and neo-Nazis who want to see society descend into chaos so that they can come to power and build a new fascist state.”

But the movement, as it were, is still disparate and diffuse. And it’s one of several quasi-groups that have sparked investigations in the military.

Late last year the army launched an investigation into a Fort Benning, Georgia-based mid-grade officer who had been spouting racist, anti-government rants on Reddit, calling for the same type of armed insurrection sought by so many extremist groups.

Known as Nebor, Maj. Jeff Poole was a fixture on the Army subreddit, where a group of moderators noticed his activity on other subreddits and used his information to compile a 75-page report for Army Criminal Investigative Command on his activity

Poole did not appear to associate with any organized group, unlike Army Pvt. Ethan Melzer, who was indicted this month in a plot to attack his own unit, spearheaded by a Europe-based “Satanist neo-Nazi group.” originally founded in the United Kingdom.

Members of the Order of the Nine Angles have “espoused violent, neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic, and Satanic beliefs, and have expressed admiration for both Nazis, such as Adolf Hitler, and Islamic jihadists, such as [Osama] Bin Laden, the now-deceased former leader of al-Qaida,” his indictment reads.

And in 2018, the Marine Corps discovered then-Pvt. Vasillios Pistolis had joined the Atomwaffen Division, a neo-Nazi group founded in 2015 by Brandon Russell, who enlisted in the Florida Army National Guard the following year.

“The challenge is, it’s a huge melting pot of different individuals without a clear-cut ideology,” Seth Jones, a researcher at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told Military Times in a Monday phone interview. ”People are associating with it that have different short- and long-term objectives. And that’s the problem for those of us that write about it.”

Jones and two co-authors released a report June 17, “The Escalating Terrorism Problem in the United States,” the result of a compilation of data that includes far-right, far-left, religious and other extremist groups.

© Copyright Original Source

.

[mikewhitney]

There are numerous extreme right and racist organization members in the ranks

Source: https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/06/23/far-right-groups-like-the-boogaloo-and-o9a-continue-to-attract-troops-and-veterans/

Far-right groups like the “Boogaloo” and “O9A” continue to attract troops and veterans



As protesters have taken to the streets this month to call for racial justice and police reform, in the wake of the alleged murder of George Floyd by Minneapolis police, another movement has made headlines for all the wrong reasons. Its name is Boogaloo.

Two weeks after the FBI arrested an Army reservist and two veterans, one of the Navy and the other the Air Force, for planning to incite violence at a Las Vegas protest, an active-duty airman shot and killed a federal security officer in Oakland, California.

All four, according to their online activity, identified with the far-right group, which is loosely tied to anti-government and white-supremacist beliefs, but mostly advocates for an armed insurrection― of whatever kind― in general.

Largely brushed off by veterans and service members as a group of has-beens and wannabes, the Boogaloo archetype that emerged in memes in the past decade has taken hold in the violent-extremist corners of the internet.

In both the white-power and anti-government “communities, ‘boogaloo’ was frequently associated with racist violence and, in many cases, was an explicit call for race war,” according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. “Today the term is regularly deployed by white nationalists and neo-Nazis who want to see society descend into chaos so that they can come to power and build a new fascist state.”

But the movement, as it were, is still disparate and diffuse. And it’s one of several quasi-groups that have sparked investigations in the military.

Late last year the army launched an investigation into a Fort Benning, Georgia-based mid-grade officer who had been spouting racist, anti-government rants on Reddit, calling for the same type of armed insurrection sought by so many extremist groups.

Known as Nebor, Maj. Jeff Poole was a fixture on the Army subreddit, where a group of moderators noticed his activity on other subreddits and used his information to compile a 75-page report for Army Criminal Investigative Command on his activity

Poole did not appear to associate with any organized group, unlike Army Pvt. Ethan Melzer, who was indicted this month in a plot to attack his own unit, spearheaded by a Europe-based “Satanist neo-Nazi group.” originally founded in the United Kingdom.

Members of the Order of the Nine Angles have “espoused violent, neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic, and Satanic beliefs, and have expressed admiration for both Nazis, such as Adolf Hitler, and Islamic jihadists, such as [Osama] Bin Laden, the now-deceased former leader of al-Qaida,” his indictment reads.

And in 2018, the Marine Corps discovered then-Pvt. Vasillios Pistolis had joined the Atomwaffen Division, a neo-Nazi group founded in 2015 by Brandon Russell, who enlisted in the Florida Army National Guard the following year.

“The challenge is, it’s a huge melting pot of different individuals without a clear-cut ideology,” Seth Jones, a researcher at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told Military Times in a Monday phone interview. ”People are associating with it that have different short- and long-term objectives. And that’s the problem for those of us that write about it.”

Jones and two co-authors released a report June 17, “The Escalating Terrorism Problem in the United States,” the result of a compilation of data that includes far-right, far-left, religious and other extremist groups.

© Copyright Original Source

.

This is too vague about the beliefs to determine the perspective of these groups. Plus, any reference to the SPLC is nonsense. It is the racist Antifa and BLM (plus many democrats who call the masses deplorables) makes a general concern that promotes such reactive groups.

Either the military is training people wrong or the people are trained with patriotism which promotes protection of the nation with acts separate from the military roles. It would be odd and horrible if veterans, who have fought for this country, were not continuing to be interested in the subsequent state of the nation and its protection.

I don't want some white-supremacists to take over the nation just like I don't want radical Antifa and BLM to be out burning cities. We need sound government and peaceful streets. But there is no likely solution in sight for either of these.

[shunyadragon]

This is too vague about the beliefs to determine the perspective of these groups. Plus, any reference to the SPLC is nonsense. It is the racist Antifa and BLM (plus many democrats who call the masses deplorables) makes a general concern that promotes such reactive groups.

Either the military is training people wrong or the people are trained with patriotism which promotes protection of the nation with acts separate from the military roles. It would be odd and horrible if veterans, who have fought for this country, were not continuing to be interested in the subsequent state of the nation and its protection.

I don't want some white-supremacists to take over the nation just like I don't want radical Antifa and BLM to be out burning cities. We need sound government and peaceful streets. But there is no likely solution in sight for either of these.

Your playing dodge ball. Read the article again it is not vague it is specific and detailed as to the rise of extreme right and racist organizations in the military.