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The ethics of a hypothetical pre-natal screening for Homosexuality

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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    I do not need to do anything. It is a hypothetical.
    I'm not sure how many dodges this is at this point.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Folks will always be prejudiced. And all of us have prejudices. Just look at how we select who we date and marry. There is an awful lot of prejudices that come into play there. Everything from the sex of the person to what their political/religious beliefs are.

      You can't wave a wand and make it disappear as much as you might want to.

      So you have to deal with those prejudices and act accordingly.
      That is a very sweeping and somewhat over simplified reply. The analysis of prejudice and the cultural conditioning of behaviours and attitudes is very complex.

      Where is the innate hostility to homosexuality [the topic of this thread]? Do pre-school children differentiate between one another on such grounds? How do people come to their opinions about homosexuality/homosexuals in western society?
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

        I'm not sure how many dodges this is at this point.
        Your entire thread is a hypothetical therefore I do not need to anything "in the meantime".

        What we should be doing is addressing prejudices against homosexuality [the topic of this thread].

        Your earlier comments belie your prejudices. Where does that negative attitude you demonstrated and the antagonism towards [what we now term homosexuality and homosexuals] come from?

        Do we find the same animus towards different sexual orientations in all cultures throughout all of recorded human history? No we do not. Hence it is not innate within human beings.

        Therefore this hostility and antipathy that your earlier remarks so neatly encapsulated, is cultural. It is learned. Exactly as racism or gender stereotyping is learned.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          That is a very sweeping and somewhat over simplified reply. The analysis of prejudice and the cultural conditioning of behaviours and attitudes is very complex.

          Where is the innate hostility to homosexuality [the topic of this thread]? Do pre-school children differentiate between one another on such grounds? How do people come to their opinions about homosexuality/homosexuals in western society?
          Actually it strikes right at the heart of the matter. Prejudice is something that may well be a product of evolution[1]. How we discern things and make choices. We're stuck with it and it isn't going anywhere. We will always discriminate on one basis or another.

          As to homosexuality and babies. Even a lot of the most P.C., "wokest" of parents might think that it's grand but it isn't something they want for their children.





          1.
          Source: Prejudice Is Hard-wired Into The Human Brain, Says ASU Study


          Summary:

          Contrary to what most people believe, the tendency to be prejudiced is a form of common sense, hard-wired into the human brain through evolution as an adaptive response to protect our prehistoric ancestors from danger.


          Source

          © Copyright Original Source


          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

            Your entire thread is a hypothetical therefore I do not need to anything "in the meantime".

            What we should be doing is addressing prejudices against homosexuality [the topic of this thread].

            Your earlier comments belie your prejudices. Where does that negative attitude you demonstrated and the antagonism towards [what we now term homosexuality and homosexuals] come from?

            Do we find the same animus towards different sexual orientations in all cultures throughout all of recorded human history? No we do not. Hence it is not innate within human beings.

            Therefore this hostility and antipathy that your earlier remarks so neatly encapsulated, is cultural. It is learned. Exactly as racism or gender stereotyping is learned.
            Who's assigning positions now?

            Comment


            • Actually there was an article many years ago that I unfortunately don't have about the argument of homosexuality being genetic or lifestyle choice. One of the the people responding to that question said the idea should never be entertained because it could lead to just this situation which he considered too like eugenics for his comfort. Interesting part was he was a prominent leader of a gay group involved in politics. I sometimes think about digging for it but it was during the early days of the internet and I don't know if it will turn up. My point is, the idea is already being argued over. I suspect no one is crazy about the connection to eugenics.
              Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Actually it strikes right at the heart of the matter. Prejudice is something that may well be a product of evolution[1].
                The operative word in that second sentence being “may” and furthermore not everyone subscribes to those evolutionary hypotheses.


                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                We will always discriminate on one basis or another.
                You are very keen to make emphatic and unsupported generalisations. “Folks will always be prejudiced. And “We will always discriminate on one basis or another” [My emphasis]

                What evidence supports either of those statements?

                We know nothing of the cultural behaviours and attitudes of our early human ancestors. We have no idea if, when groups did come into contact, there was inevitably violence and/or hostility. Yes it appears violence did occur but we cannot use isolated evidence to make an assertion about all early human behaviours across tens of thousands of years.


                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                As to homosexuality and babies. Even a lot of the most P.C., "wokest" of parents might think that it's grand but it isn't something they want for their children.
                Again you would need some evidence for that comment.

                However, I would suggest [and I can only write from personal anecdotal experience] that most of that concern is because of existing social prejudices against homosexuality and regard for a child’s welfare and the fact that most parents do not wish their children to come to harm or be unhappy.

                Most parents [I suspect] do not wish to have their children beaten up in the street, reviled in school, mocked by their work colleagues, discriminated against in housing, job promotions, or the right to be a parent, raped to cure them of their lesbianism, or worse murdered, simply because they are gay.


                There is nothing intrinsically offensive about homosexuality. The antipathy and aversion are the result of negative cultural attitudes. Were that not so homosexuality [as we now know it] would have been condemned in all societies in all recorded history. And we know that is not the case. Homophobia and antipathy towards homosexuals is learned behaviour exactly as racism, sexism, or religious prejudices are learned.

                Now why not address my questions?

                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                  Who's assigning positions now?
                  You made comments that reflect western cultural prejudices and antipathy towards homosexuality. You, like all of us, are a product of your upbringing and your experiences.

                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    You made comments that reflect western cultural prejudices and antipathy towards homosexuality.
                    Well, duh. You asked why someone might want to abort a gay fetus. Those western prejudices would be the reason. Are you telling me you can't tell the difference between "Motive" and "justification"?
                    Last edited by CivilDiscourse; 11-27-2020, 06:48 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                      Well, duh. You asked why someone might want to abort a gay fetus. Those western prejudices would be the reason. Are you telling me you can't tell the difference between "Motive" and "justification"?
                      You, as with the rest of us, are a product of your experiences and upbringing. You exhibit those prejudices in what you write. It is those irrational prejudices that I referenced some while ago.

                      You may as well start a thread about a hypothetical situation whereby any embryo that has a "genetic" disposition to be left-handed should be aborted.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                        You, as with the rest of us, are a product of your experiences and upbringing. You exhibit those prejudices in what you write. It is those irrational prejudices that I referenced some while ago.

                        You may as well start a thread about a hypothetical situation whereby any embryo that has a "genetic" disposition to be left-handed should be aborted.
                        No, You brought up prejudices when I answered your questions about "why" someone would choose to abort a child. You then took the answers provided as if I stated them as my opinion. You've failed there, and my guess is that this tactic is just another way to push the conversation away from you dodging the conflict in morals brought up in the hypothetical and instead try to focus on your new made-up prejudice attack.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                          No, You brought up prejudices when I answered your questions about "why" someone would choose to abort a child. You then took the answers provided as if I stated them as my opinion. You've failed there, and my guess is that this tactic is just another way to push the conversation away from you dodging the conflict in morals brought up in the hypothetical and instead try to focus on your new made-up prejudice attack.
                          You wrote this "Cultural, wanting their kids to be "normal", not wanting their kids to live a life that is harder for them, just not liking gays, etc." All of which are premised on existing cultural prejudices.

                          You then wrote that "At the end of the day, it's irrelevant "WHY" what is relevant is that it likely would happen." It is the "WHY" I am addressing.

                          If your hypothetical scenario was ever possible you are contending that abortions would take place because of existing cultural prejudices against homosexuals. Just as currently female embryos are aborted because of cultural prejudices against women.

                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                            You wrote this "Cultural, wanting their kids to be "normal", not wanting their kids to live a life that is harder for them, just not liking gays, etc." All of which are premised on existing cultural prejudices.

                            You then wrote that "At the end of the day, it's irrelevant "WHY" what is relevant is that it likely would happen." It is the "WHY" I am addressing.

                            If your hypothetical scenario was ever possible you are contending that abortions would take place because of existing cultural prejudices against homosexuals. Just as currently female embryos are aborted because of cultural prejudices against women.
                            Yes. Those are the reasons why people would likely choose to abort fetuses if there is a hypothetical pre-natal test. I'm not sure what your problem is. The fact that this would happen is like saying "water is wet".

                            That doesn't at all say anything about my prejudices, anymore than you saying Asian cultures have a preference for may children and that is why women are selectively aborted there, says anything about your prejudices about women.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                              That doesn't at all say anything about my prejudices, anymore than you saying Asian cultures have a preference for may children and that is why women are selectively aborted there, says anything about your prejudices about women.
                              Of course all that points to cultural attitudes and prejudice.

                              Why do you think Asian cultures have a preference for male children?
                              Why are females undervalued?
                              What is the underlying reason?

                              Why do you consider westerners want "their kids to be "normal"?
                              Why do you think some westerners are prone to "just not liking gays"?
                              Where do those negative attitudes and that hostility originate?
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Of course all that points to cultural attitudes and prejudice.

                                Why do you think Asian cultures have a preference for male children?
                                Why are females undervalued?
                                What is the underlying reason?

                                Why do you consider westerners want "their kids to be "normal"?
                                Why do you think some westerners are prone to "just not liking gays"?
                                Where do those negative attitudes and that hostility originate?
                                Why do people murder one-another? You can delve into that to get people to killing each other long-term, but, at the same time, we don't focus on that and ignore murders until we solve the underlying issues.

                                Comment

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