Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria
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The ethics of a hypothetical pre-natal screening for Homosexuality
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Your first point presents unsupported allegations "[s]upporters, who appear to be growing"; and a selected instance, to wit one individual who posts to these boards.
From Slate (described as a United States-based liberal, English language online current affairs and culture magazine created in 1996 by former New Republic editor Michael Kinsley)":
It's also a view advanced by other philosophers like Peter Singer, Jeffrey Reiman, Jonathan Glover, and Michael Tooley, and a number of others who take a relatively consequentialist view on ethics meaning that it might be a more common view than you seem to think.
Ann Furedi, head of the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS), the primary abortion provider in Britain, is on record as saying at the 2012 Fédération Internationale des Associés Professionnels de l'Avortement et de la Contraception (a.k.a., International Federation of Professional Abortion and Contraception Associates or FIAPAC) Congress that, "There is nothing magical about passing through the birth canal that transforms the fetus into a person" demonstrating her support for this concept.
This appears to be the opinion of BPAS's American counterpart, Planned Parenthood, when a lobbyist for their Florida affiliates, Alisa LaPolt Snow had the following exchange with Jim Boyd and Jose Oliva -- members of the Florida House of Representatives:
"It is just really hard for me to even ask you this question because I'm almost in disbelief," said Rep. Jim Boyd. "If a baby is born on a table as a result of a botched abortion, what would Planned Parenthood want to have happen to that child that is struggling for life?"
"We believe that any decision that's made should be left up to the woman, her family, and the physician," said Planned Parenthood lobbyist Snow. . . .
Rep. Jose Oliva followed up, asking the Planned Parenthood official, "You stated that a baby born alive on a table as a result of a botched abortion that that decision should be left to the doctor and the family. Is that what you're saying?"
Again, Snow replied, "That decision should be between the patient and the health care provider."
You can see the exchange here:
Melissa Victoria Harris-Perry, who hosts a weekend news and opinion television show on MSNBC and made the news for mocking Mitt Romney and his adopted black grandson (for which she later apologized for), appears to be another advocate of after-birth abortions based upon her comments on her show back on July 21: "When does life begin? I submit the answer depends an awful lot on the feeling of the parents. A powerful feeling -- but not science."
And keep in mind that, while still a senator in the Illinois legislature, Barack Obama opposed efforts to protect babies who had survived abortion attempts voting against Born Alive acts in Illinois as well as opposing legislation that would define those babies as persons. During debate over one of the Born Alive bills Obama made it clear that he was far more concerned with things like protecting abortion itself and with protecting doctors who just shouldn't be required to preserve the lives of babies who stubbornly refused to die and were born alive as can be seen from his remarks:
As I understand it, this puts the burden on the attending physician who has determined, since they were performing this procedure, that, in fact, this is a nonviable fetus; that if that fetus, or child ... however way you want to describe it ... is now outside the mother's womb and the doctor continues to think that it's nonviable but there's, let's say, movement or some indication that, in fact, they're not just coming out limp and dead.
So if the doctor was wrong and the baby certainly was viable in that it actually survived an attempt to kill it, then the doctor shouldn't be "burden[ed]" with trying to keep the baby alive since it had the gall to "not just coming out limp and dead."
I guess this means that if someone is sick or injured and a doctor assumes that they won't survive but in fact does then that doctor shouldn't be burdened with helping to keep them alive but should be free to refuse all treatment and even food and water so that they will finally die.
What does it say about our society when it can even entertain such a reprehensible evil practice?
And in spite of the joke that is Snopes, when it comes to fact checking controversial subjects (especially if politics is involved), proclaiming that after-birth abortions (which is in effect euthanasia) are nothing more than a "manufactured controversy from several years ago" it appears to already be taking place in the Netherlands[1]:
And then there is this (check from the 5 minute mark):
indicating that Planned Parenthood in St. Paul, Minnesota will "Break the Baby's Neck" if the abortion process fails and the baby is born alive:
We don't tell women this [...] but if we was to proceed with the abortion and the baby was to come out still alive and active, most likely we would break the baby's neck
And finally, here is an insightful piece in National Review written shortly after we had a Governor come out in support of post-birth or after-birth abortion early last year shows that we have reached a point where post-birth abortions is now on the table.
The very fact that a governor feels comfortable about publicly supporting such things is an indication of it growing in popularity in some quarters. And the fact that 41 Democrat Senators successfully filibustered the Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act (which would have amended the federal criminal code, instituting penalties and jail time for health care practitioners who don't provide certain medical care " [i]n the case of an abortion or attempted abortion that results in a child born alive") and prevented it from receiving a final vote is even stronger evidence that after-birth abortion is gaining momentum. The claim that it interfered with a "woman's right to choose" is absurd unless they mean her choice to terminate babies after they've been born
1. I should note that Starlight (who is the advocate for post-birth abortions that I alluded to -- see HERE as well as HERE for just two examples) -- says this is also the case in BelgiumLast edited by rogue06; 11-25-2020, 08:43 AM.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI didn't want to further derail the thread but since you asked so nicely.
From Slate (described as a United States-based liberal, English language online current affairs and culture magazine created in 1996 by former New Republic editor Michael Kinsley)":
It's also a view advanced by other philosophers like Peter Singer, Jeffrey Reiman, Jonathan Glover, and Michael Tooley, and a number of others who take a relatively consequentialist view on ethics meaning that it might be a more common view than you seem to think.
Ann Furedi, head of the British Pregnancy Advisory Service (BPAS), the primary abortion provider in Britain, is on record as saying at the 2012 Fédération Internationale des Associés Professionnels de l'Avortement et de la Contraception (a.k.a., International Federation of Professional Abortion and Contraception Associates or FIAPAC) Congress that, "There is nothing magical about passing through the birth canal that transforms the fetus into a person" demonstrating her support for this concept.
This appears to be the opinion of BPAS's American counterpart, Planned Parenthood, when a lobbyist for their Florida affiliates, Alisa LaPolt Snow had the following exchange with Jim Boyd and Jose Oliva -- members of the Florida House of Representatives:
"It is just really hard for me to even ask you this question because I'm almost in disbelief," said Rep. Jim Boyd. "If a baby is born on a table as a result of a botched abortion, what would Planned Parenthood want to have happen to that child that is struggling for life?"
"We believe that any decision that's made should be left up to the woman, her family, and the physician," said Planned Parenthood lobbyist Snow. . . .
Rep. Jose Oliva followed up, asking the Planned Parenthood official, "You stated that a baby born alive on a table as a result of a botched abortion that that decision should be left to the doctor and the family. Is that what you're saying?"
Again, Snow replied, "That decision should be between the patient and the health care provider."
You can see the exchange here:
Melissa Victoria Harris-Perry, who hosts a weekend news and opinion television show on MSNBC and made the news for mocking Mitt Romney and his adopted black grandson (for which she later apologized for), appears to be another advocate of after-birth abortions based upon her comments on her show back on July 21: "When does life begin? I submit the answer depends an awful lot on the feeling of the parents. A powerful feeling -- but not science."
And keep in mind that, while still a senator in the Illinois legislature, Barack Obama opposed efforts to protect babies who had survived abortion attempts voting against Born Alive acts in Illinois as well as opposing legislation that would define those babies as persons. During debate over one of the Born Alive bills Obama made it clear that he was far more concerned with things like protecting abortion itself and with protecting doctors who just shouldn't be required to preserve the lives of babies who stubbornly refused to die and were born alive as can be seen from his remarks:
As I understand it, this puts the burden on the attending physician who has determined, since they were performing this procedure, that, in fact, this is a nonviable fetus; that if that fetus, or child ... however way you want to describe it ... is now outside the mother's womb and the doctor continues to think that it's nonviable but there's, let's say, movement or some indication that, in fact, they're not just coming out limp and dead.
So if the doctor was wrong and the baby certainly was viable in that it actually survived an attempt to kill it, then the doctor shouldn't be "burden[ed]" with trying to keep the baby alive since it had the gall to "not just coming out limp and dead."
I guess this means that if someone is sick or injured and a doctor assumes that they won't survive but in fact does then that doctor shouldn't be burdened with helping to keep them alive but should be free to refuse all treatment and even food and water so that they will finally die.
What does it say about our society when it can even entertain such a reprehensible evil practice?
And in spite of the joke that is Snopes, when it comes to fact checking controversial subjects (especially if politics is involved), proclaiming that after-birth abortions (which is in effect euthanasia) are nothing more than a "manufactured controversy from several years ago" it appears to already be taking place in the Netherlands[1]:
And then there is this (check from the 5 minute mark):
indicating that Planned Parenthood in St. Paul, Minnesota will "Break the Baby's Neck" if the abortion process fails and the baby is born alive:
We don't tell women this [...] but if we was to proceed with the abortion and the baby was to come out still alive and active, most likely we would break the baby's neck
And finally, here is an insightful piece in National Review written shortly after we had a Governor come out in support of post-birth or after-birth abortion early last year shows that we have reached a point where post-birth abortions is now on the table.
The very fact that a governor feels comfortable about publicly supporting such things is an indication of it growing in popularity in some quarters. And the fact that 41 Democrat Senators successfully filibustered the Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act (which would have amended the federal criminal code, instituting penalties and jail time for health care practitioners who don't provide certain medical care " [i]n the case of an abortion or attempted abortion that results in a child born alive") and prevented it from receiving a final vote is even stronger evidence that after-birth abortion is gaining momentum. The claim that it interfered with a "woman's right to choose" is absurd unless they mean her choice to terminate babies after they've been born
1. I should note that Starlight (who is the advocate for post-birth abortions that I alluded to -- see HERE as well as HERE for just two examples) -- says this is also the case in Belgium
It would have been wise to produce all this in support of your initial comment, not post eventum as it were."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
It is a hypothetical. Thought experiment if you will. The fact that you find hypotheticals irrelevant"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
None of that was included in your initial post, which is the only thing to which I could respond.
It would have been wise to produce all this in support of your initial comment, not post eventum as it were.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Ah I note that once again the sweeping generalisation is being employed.
Comment
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Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
The reality is you only complained about the hypothetical being irrelevant after the fact.
Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View PostOtherwise, you saw the title, saw the word hypothetical, read they hypothetical, was challenged
The issue is cultural and/or religious attitudes as actually occurs with the aborting of female embryos but that is not something you wished to address."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIt is irrelevant.
I made my position clear in my first post [#4] and elaborated upon that in my second post [#6]
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIt took awhile for me to organize and write this up which I really didn't want to do unless challenged.
This merely looks as if you have rushed away to do some more net trawling."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
You would have been better off producing some of it at least as your opening argument rather than making vague and unfounded generalisations.
This merely looks as if you have rushed away to do some more net trawling.
As I said I didn't want to bother doing it as it was a hassle and didn't want to waste my time unless someone expressed an interest.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostMeh. Nearly all of this I've posted previously here and there (here's an example). I just had to find it all and fix punctuation (a lot of quotation marks and such didn't make it through the transition to v5 and comes out as a square box when you hit edit or quote and copy pasta it.
As I said I didn't want to bother doing it as it was a hassle and didn't want to waste my time unless someone expressed an interest.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostYou are protesting too much.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI guess that you mean that I corroborated everything I said previously."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
No. I was remarking on your earnest explanations as to why you did not, at least allude to any of that information, in your initial reply.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAh. If you prefer it can all be boiled down to laziness."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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