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Republicans, What Will Satisfy You?

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  • Originally posted by Charles View Post
    The question reminded me of the wise words of Michael Gerson:



    THIS IS A MASSIVE FAILURE OF CHARACTER AMONG REPUBLICANS — WITH EVANGELICALS OUT IN FRONT

    When you are asking people who completely sold out with regards to integrity and ethics and who have now lost the very, very little they got in return, you should not be confused if it takes a lot to satisfy them.
    I finally got around to reading Gerson's latest steaming pile of... "wisdom."

    Leaving aside his dishonest ASSertions, I'd be much more sympathetic if he argued that Christians ought not be involved in politics in any capacity, including as voters. I would not quickly jump to that position, but it would be much easier for me to land there than at his current one.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

      Being a "die hard" US patriot myself, I was explaining why you didn't need to worry about "die hards" nitpicking your post that was nitpicking the US.
      Yet you were still sweet enough to read what I wrote.



      Originally posted by Ronson View Post
      Certainly Germany and New Zealand, but any modern democracy.
      [my emphasis] Ah you see? Is it not so much easier when you qualify your comments?

      You have gone from this generalised and meaningless statement "But as far as democracies go, the US has done a relatively good job for the longest amount of time" to now offering some kind of of context by citing democracies established since 1919, although Germany had a period of dictatorship for twelve years after that..




      "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seanD View Post

        Correction: it was an Australian from Australia speaking about her own country, as opposed to a couple of blowhards with liberal biases making assumptions and guesses about what's happening there from outside. Yup, pretty epic.
        No correction at all. It was ONE person writing ONE article speaking NOT about her own country but about ONE premier of ONE state. And the article did not state what you claimed.

        And the "couple of blowhards" are one person who lived in Australia for 50 years and one person who has family there, both of whom, one would think, would know about the country and how it works.

        You screwed up. Big time. You tried to use a ridiculous claim to discount a cite that showed you to be wrong. Man up and admit it.
        America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Maranatha View Post
          That's like a Russian gymnast asking an olympic official what it's going to take for the commitee to let him keep his gold medal. How about rewinding time and not commit fraud again.
          So...you will never be satisfied. You'll continue to take the obsession about fraud through the next four years, despite the complete absence of evidence for the claim. Perfectly reasonable.

          To a Trumpite.
          America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

          Comment


          • All the evidence I need ...

            evidence.jpg

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
              All the evidence I need ...

              evidence.jpg
              Which is no evidence at all. Thanks for proving the point - Trumpites need no evidence, they will blindly follow and believe whatever Trump tells them.
              America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                All the evidence I need ...
                Your graph doesn't even have a label. I assume, from googling, it's Wisconsin. That's only 10 electoral votes. Even if it was fraud, it wouldn't come remotely close to making Trump win if that state had gone to him instead of Biden.

                Here's a little explanation of why it wasn't fraud:

                An unusually easy Trump debunking: There was no suspicious vote dump in Wisconsin

                What’s depicted here... is “votes being counted on the night of the election.”...

                this surge in votes [was the] vote results from Milwaukee County, the most populous in the state, being formally registered. Polls closed in Wisconsin at 8 p.m., and Milwaukee County began tallying its results. In the middle of the night, the county’s elections commissioner got into a police car to deliver the count.

                The media was present and recorded the scene.

                Wis.JPG
                [[Note that Twitter automatically uses my own timezone in caption of this picture. 10pm in NZ is about 4am in the states depending on what the daylight savings are doing and whether you want EST or PT or something else]]

                ...Joe Biden won the county by a nearly 183,000-vote margin overall... Just like that, Trump’s lead eroded — because ballots from a county that ended up constituting about 14 percent of the total votes in the state were suddenly added.

                Nor is that margin suspicious. Let’s compare county-level results from 2020 to the results in 2016... [per county graphs] ...the increase in votes cast for Biden relative to Trump in Milwaukee was more modest than it was in Dane or Waukesha.

                So, to recap:
                • The votes came a few hours after polls closed.
                • They came from the state’s most populous county.
                • The media documented them being delivered.
                • The margin recorded was in line with the shifts across the state.

                This is totally normal in elections. Some areas give regular updates as they're doing the counting, and some areas report their results all at once. Hence on the night itself as the count is being reported you've got to think about not only what the results currently are, but which areas haven't reported yet and how they are likely to lean.
                Last edited by Starlight; 11-22-2020, 03:53 PM.

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                • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                  I finally got around to reading Gerson's latest steaming pile of... "wisdom."

                  Leaving aside his dishonest ASSertions, I'd be much more sympathetic if he argued that Christians ought not be involved in politics in any capacity, including as voters. I would not quickly jump to that position, but it would be much easier for me to land there than at his current one.
                  I have a feeling you were challenged by this part since you react like that and need to depend on that type of language:

                  And second, U.S. politics would be better off if White evangelicals consistently applied their moral tradition to public life. Not only Christians, of course, can stand for integrity. But consider what would happen if White evangelicals insisted on supporting honest, compassionate, decent, civil, self-controlled men and women for office. The alternative is our current reality, in which evangelicals have often been a malicious and malignant influence in U.S. politics.
                  https://frankschaefferblog.com/2020/...-out-in-front/

                  "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                  Comment


                  • Republicans have taken a different path. They are not coming back. The question remains whether Americans will follow them; many already have.


                    Taking a cue from President Trump, several leading Republican lawmakers and officials have refused to acknowledge Joe Biden’s victory in the 2020 presidential contest and indulge Trump’s baseless claims of voter fraud.

                    In Georgia, two GOP senators called on the state’s Republican secretary of state to resign, alleging irregularities and mismanagement without offering evidence. Only four of 53 Senate Republicans have congratulated Biden on his projected victory. Sen. Ron Johnson of Wisconsin recently told reporters “there’s nothing to congratulate [Biden] about,” while Missouri’s Roy Blunt said the president “may not have been defeated at all.”

                    It’s the latest sign of the party’s lurch away from democratic ideals and practices, a shift that predates Trump but one that has accelerated precipitously since. Now, according to data released by an international team of political scientists just before the Nov. 3 election, it’s possible to quantify the extent to which the Republican Party no longer adheres to such principles as the commitment to free and fair elections with multiple parties, the respectful treatment of political opponents and the avoidance of violent rhetoric.

                    “The Republican Party in the U.S. has retreated from upholding democratic norms in recent years,” said Anna Lührmann, a political scientist at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden and a former member of the German parliament. “Its rhetoric is closer to authoritarian parties, such as AKP in Turkey and Fidesz in Hungary.”
                    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                    “not all there” - you know who you are

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                      Your graph doesn't even have a label. I assume, from googling, it's Wisconsin. That's only 10 electoral votes. Even if it was fraud, it wouldn't come remotely close to making Trump win if that state had gone to him instead of Biden.
                      It's not 10 votes. And it doesn't matter if Trump can win it or not now. This is a matter of "even if it was fraud" justifications, like you just said. Any fraud is too much fraud, and this should never happen again.

                      Here's a little explanation of why it wasn't fraud:
                      I don't need the MSM to interpret that for me. I've watched 11 presidential elections, from 1980 to now, and nothing like this has ever happened before. The mathematical probability for this does not compute. I believe my eyes, not Democrat analysts on the MSM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                        I don't need the MSM to interpret that for me. I've watched 11 presidential elections, from 1980 to now, and nothing like this has ever happened before. The mathematical probability for this does not compute. I believe my eyes, not Democrat analysts on the MSM.
                        You're right, "nothing like this has ever happened before" because no previous president has been tossing around frivolous lawsuits to the extent Trump and his followers have, or sowing fear in the electoral system so that people freak out and start screaming about things that appear to have happened in previous elections without fuss.

                        National Review, a source that can hardly be described as liberal, has been rather critical of the claims of electoral fraud and the lawsuits regarding it in particular.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                          It's not 10 votes.
                          Wisconsin has 10 votes in the electoral college.

                          I've watched 11 presidential elections, from 1980 to now, and nothing like this has ever happened before.
                          I've watched heaps of election and this sort of thing happens all the time. Different areas report their vote counts at different rates, sometimes all at once, sometimes bit by bit. And because the different areas lean toward different parties in different ways, it's totally normally that throughout the count as different areas are reported there can be sudden jumps in favour of one of the candidates. Absolutely normal.

                          And in this particular instance we know exactly what happened. That spike was Milwaukee County reporting its results. It's the biggest county in the state, and democrat leaning, and it reported all its votes at once instead of drip feeding them. The media knew this was going to happen, and were literally there videoing the Milwaukee electoral commissioner delivering those vote tallies because they knew that the question of who finally won Wisconsin would hinge on that large block of votes.

                          The mathematical probability for this does not compute.

                          Which are you struggling with? The fact that most of the votes in a large democrat-leaning county went democrat? Or the fact that the county didn't report partial results during counting, and instead reported all its votes at once when their counting was complete?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                            It's not 10 votes. And it doesn't matter if Trump can win it or not now. This is a matter of "even if it was fraud" justifications, like you just said. Any fraud is too much fraud, and this should never happen again.
                            It's a little like mowing the lawn. You never get EVERY blade, and it's just not a good expenditure of your time to go back and do so. There are always some errors in any election. The issue is whether there is a significant amount. And nothing indicates that the errors/fraud (if any) in this election is enough to even go close to affecting even one of the states.

                            Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                            I don't need the MSM to interpret that for me. I've watched 11 presidential elections, from 1980 to now, and nothing like this has ever happened before. The mathematical probability for this does not compute. I believe my eyes, not Democrat analysts on the MSM.
                            I'm sorry, but there's nothing at all that "does not compute" about the mathematical probability of anything that's happened in this election. Those things that are mathematically improbable have, in fact, turned out to not actually exist (like 140,000 votes ysteriously appearing overnight for Biden).
                            America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.

                            Comment


                            • Powell too crazy for Trump, but not too crazy for a few of our fellow members in Christ, it seems.
                              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                              “not all there” - you know who you are

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View Post
                                It's a little like mowing the lawn. You never get EVERY blade, and it's just not a good expenditure of your time to go back and do so. There are always some errors in any election. The issue is whether there is a significant amount. And nothing indicates that the errors/fraud (if any) in this election is enough to even go close to affecting even one of the states.
                                Yep. As much as it would be nice to never have a single fraudulent vote or a single error ever, in practice elections are fine so long as the issues aren't enough votes to affect the electoral outcome.

                                So the typical US rate of ~2 illegal votes per state per election isn't a problem. They won't change the outcomes of elections.

                                However voter ID laws that prevented tens of thousands of legal voters per state from being able to cast votes would be a problem. That would change the outcomes of elections by disenfranchising legal voters.

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