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  • #31
    Originally posted by casaba View Post
    An aside, back to me lamenting on how fractured discussion here has become: I remember discussing items here with you, Sparko, 12 or 13 years ago, and there was honest discussion. Sure, there were some headcases (sorry, but I see Mountain Man is still here) but discussion was possible. Here, now, in this thread, there are two separate chats in progress: Rightists (in my opinion, unfounded) complaints that the NZ approach is unacceptable, and Leftists cracking jokes together and each side calling the other names. Not sure how long I'll stick around.
    That's true of this forum and true of America as a whole I think. US leftists and people from other Western countries all get along fine and can chat and laugh together. And then there's US conservatives who live in their own little bubble of propaganda disconnected from the rest of the world. It's gotten to the point where the divide is unbridgeable and neither people in the rest of the Western world nor people in their own country can reach them any longer, they are too far down the rabbit hole. The value of interacting with them then becomes working out what caused them to get that way and then preventing that taking root in our own countries.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      That's true of this forum and true of America as a whole I think. US leftists and people from other Western countries all get along fine and can chat and laugh together. And then there's US conservatives who live in their own little bubble of propaganda disconnected from the rest of the world. It's gotten to the point where the divide is unbridgeable and neither people in the rest of the Western world nor people in their own country can reach them any longer, they are too far down the rabbit hole. The value of interacting with them then becomes working out what caused them to get that way and then preventing that taking root in our own countries.
      Freedom can be a very daunting concept for most people, who are happy to just follow propaganda. The worst thing is that a secular religion is trying to replace Christianity. We get a return to man's fruitless pursuits and inventions.

      I certainly would prefer a more cordial discussion, but the philosophical conceptions are so different that it is hard to reconcile. Plus, you share a lot more blind confidence in governments. I hope you are right in trusting the New Zealand government, but we already have seen the extreme control going on in Australia -- was it Melbourne or Victoria or both? I think under the current pressures (nor can we forget the reach of guys like Epstein) that it would be hard for New Zealand to act independently and in its own wisdom in the current world situation. I understand about one of the African countries who was not going to do quarantines but was forced into it.

      Comment


      • #33
        Seems like Maranatha is secretly Laura Ingram. Today's edition of crazy Fox News people:

        Fox News host goes on bizarre rant about NZ, mocks accent and details ‘terrifying’ Covid ‘camps’:

        A host on Fox News in the US [Laura Ingram] has claimed "terrifying new" Covid-19 quarantine measures will see the "end of personal freedom" in New Zealand.

        ...the two suggested the New Zealand Government's quarantine and managed isolation rules were "quarantine camps" and the country was throwing away "personal freedom".

        Before Hanson appeared, Ingraham said New Zealand was "throwing people into quarantine camps".

        She then played a Facebook live video from Jacinda Ardern, talking about managed isolation and quarantine.

        However, Ardern was actually talking about those returning to New Zealand and what would happen if they refused a Covid-19 test. *

        "If someone refuses in our facilities to be tested, they have to keep staying," Ardern said. **

        "No leaving the camp until you're negative," Ingraham said, appearing to mock Ardern's accent...

        According to Johns Hopkins University, 227,177 Americans have died of coronavirus.

        Twenty-five New Zealanders have lost their lives.


        * Note these are people, who, in full knowledge of what the border quarantine policies are today, book a flight to NZ and voluntarily enter the country, knowing they will have to have a 2-week hotel stay and two Covid tests over that time.
        ** The OP article in this thread implied Ardern meant indefinite extension of stay for refusal to take the test, however it seems to me in the video shown she says an additional 2 weeks (i.e. 4 weeks total).
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          Seems like Maranatha is secretly Laura Ingram. Today's edition of crazy Fox News people:

          Fox News host goes on bizarre rant about NZ, mocks accent and details ‘terrifying’ Covid ‘camps’:

          A host on Fox News in the US [Laura Ingram] has claimed "terrifying new" Covid-19 quarantine measures will see the "end of personal freedom" in New Zealand.

          ...the two suggested the New Zealand Government's quarantine and managed isolation rules were "quarantine camps" and the country was throwing away "personal freedom".

          Before Hanson appeared, Ingraham said New Zealand was "throwing people into quarantine camps".

          She then played a Facebook live video from Jacinda Ardern, talking about managed isolation and quarantine.

          However, Ardern was actually talking about those returning to New Zealand and what would happen if they refused a Covid-19 test. *

          "If someone refuses in our facilities to be tested, they have to keep staying," Ardern said. **

          "No leaving the camp until you're negative," Ingraham said, appearing to mock Ardern's accent...

          According to Johns Hopkins University, 227,177 Americans have died of coronavirus.

          Twenty-five New Zealanders have lost their lives.


          * Note these are people, who, in full knowledge of what the border quarantine policies are today, book a flight to NZ and voluntarily enter the country, knowing they will have to have a 2-week hotel stay and two Covid tests over that time.
          ** The OP article in this thread implied Ardern meant indefinite extension of stay for refusal to take the test, however it seems to me in the video shown she says an additional 2 weeks (i.e. 4 weeks total).
          Ingraham is and has always been an idiot.
          "Obama is not a brown-skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away free healthcare. You are thinking of Jesus." Episcopal Bishop of Arizona

          I remember WinAce. Gone but not forgotten.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post
            Seems like Maranatha is secretly Laura Ingram. Today's edition of crazy Fox News people:

            Fox News host goes on bizarre rant about NZ, mocks accent and details ‘terrifying’ Covid ‘camps’:

            A host on Fox News in the US [Laura Ingram] has claimed "terrifying new" Covid-19 quarantine measures will see the "end of personal freedom" in New Zealand.

            ...the two suggested the New Zealand Government's quarantine and managed isolation rules were "quarantine camps" and the country was throwing away "personal freedom".

            Before Hanson appeared, Ingraham said New Zealand was "throwing people into quarantine camps".

            She then played a Facebook live video from Jacinda Ardern, talking about managed isolation and quarantine.

            However, Ardern was actually talking about those returning to New Zealand and what would happen if they refused a Covid-19 test. *

            "If someone refuses in our facilities to be tested, they have to keep staying," Ardern said. **

            "No leaving the camp until you're negative," Ingraham said, appearing to mock Ardern's accent...

            According to Johns Hopkins University, 227,177 Americans have died of coronavirus.

            Twenty-five New Zealanders have lost their lives.


            * Note these are people, who, in full knowledge of what the border quarantine policies are today, book a flight to NZ and voluntarily enter the country, knowing they will have to have a 2-week hotel stay and two Covid tests over that time.
            ** The OP article in this thread implied Ardern meant indefinite extension of stay for refusal to take the test, however it seems to me in the video shown she says an additional 2 weeks (i.e. 4 weeks total).
            Nah, I have no need to go to quarantine land.

            Comment


            • #36
              Are we going to continue to ignore the extreme language of the 'report' and that it wasn't used by the OP ironically? I'm still trying to work out if it's an elaborate troll or he's that far off the deep end.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post

                Freedom can be a very daunting concept for most people, who are happy to just follow propaganda. The worst thing is that a secular religion is trying to replace Christianity. We get a return to man's fruitless pursuits and inventions.

                I certainly would prefer a more cordial discussion, but the philosophical conceptions are so different that it is hard to reconcile. Plus, you share a lot more blind confidence in governments. I hope you are right in trusting the New Zealand government, but we already have seen the extreme control going on in Australia -- was it Melbourne or Victoria or both? I think under the current pressures (nor can we forget the reach of guys like Epstein) that it would be hard for New Zealand to act independently and in its own wisdom in the current world situation. I understand about one of the African countries who was not going to do quarantines but was forced into it.
                We’ve had mandatory quarantine of all travelers from the start here in Australia. Everyday life has essentially been back to normal for months except in Melbourne. Melbourne has an outbreak a few months ago which went out of control so strict measures were enforced by the Premier.

                In your view how many people have to be dying before you would think mandatory quarantining becomes necessary?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Maranatha View Post
                  https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-08-...w-zealand.html

                  Wow. Medical fascism. I might visit aussieland, but zealand sounds downright horrifying.
                  Every now and again a thread gets started that is so absurd it just doesn't deserve the attention it inevitably gets.

                  This is such a thread.
                  My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                  If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                  This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                    Every now and again a thread gets started that is so absurd it just doesn't deserve the attention it inevitably gets.

                    This is such a thread.
                    Says the guy who posted in it.

                    You are welcome to explore the tyrannical nature of the new zealand regime.

                    You are welcome to proffer the US should follow the lead of new z land, and isolate with force.

                    You can fawn over zland, wishing you could move there.

                    Lots of different avenues for you to explore. Perhaps you are not a deep thinker?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Watermelon View Post

                      We’ve had mandatory quarantine of all travelers from the start here in Australia. Everyday life has essentially been back to normal for months except in Melbourne. Melbourne has an outbreak a few months ago which went out of control so strict measures were enforced by the Premier.

                      In your view how many people have to be dying before you would think mandatory quarantining becomes necessary?
                      How many people do you want to die from mandatory quarantines and shutdown of the economy before you consider it a bad idea?

                      If there was sufficient evidence that this was a widespread epidemic in the States and killing a million in obvious fashion, I would agree that people should prefer to self-quarantine. The evidence I have seen and heard was that the high rate and number of deaths have been concentrated to a few areas and for no more than a month or two -- in the States. This did not deserve a shutdown of the other 45 or so states.

                      The people getting sick would have had to be more numerous than what I saw. (The shape of the so-called death curve would have been higher in March before people quarantined. The data does not match with the fear that was caused. ) The media would have to stop lying -- making up fake activity around hospitals and making fake claims about the number of deaths in certain cities that I examined. I had done the analysis, for example, of Dallas County after it made the news in around June. There were no statistics to support the scary news stories.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Watermelon View Post

                        We’ve had mandatory quarantine of all travelers from the start here in Australia. Everyday life has essentially been back to normal for months except in Melbourne. Melbourne has an outbreak a few months ago which went out of control so strict measures were enforced by the Premier.

                        In your view how many people have to be dying before you would think mandatory quarantining becomes necessary?
                        AS with the New Zealand report, I am interested in whether the extreme restriction tactics reported for Melbourne are true. This goes against the rights of men and against Common Law, so this is my concern. One thing obvious though is that the Silicon Valley companies have followed the same pattern of restrictions against the discussion of cures by medical doctors and about political right view points. This is a scary thing that discussions could be so readily constrained by a few internet companies.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by EvoUK View Post
                          Are we going to continue to ignore the extreme language of the 'report' and that it wasn't used by the OP ironically? I'm still trying to work out if it's an elaborate troll or he's that far off the deep end.
                          My take on the website in general is that he is that far off the deep end.
                          "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                          "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                          "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
                            How many people do you want to die from mandatory quarantines and shutdown of the economy before you consider it a bad idea?
                            Since New Zealand's all-cause mortality rate was lower in 2020 than previous years, it suggests that the lockdown had a helpful effect rather than an unhelpful one. Also, the government turned on the money tap to subsidize wages over the lockdown period so that businesses didn't go under and people didn't get fired.

                            Obviously, in the context of say America, if you do enough lockdowns for long enough and you don't provide stimulus packages, then you're going to cause financial hardships leading to deaths via suicide or lack of ability to pay for healthcare etc. But from the analyses I've seen, those sorts of numbers tend to be a few orders of magnitude lower than the number of lives lockdowns have been saving so far.

                            If Covid was to last 5 years though, I think the numbers would start working out differently. It would be impractical to lockdown for a multi-year timeframe and you would start seeing loss of life due to the lockdown itself.
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post

                              How many people do you want to die from mandatory quarantines and shutdown of the economy before you consider it a bad idea?

                              If there was sufficient evidence that this was a widespread epidemic in the States and killing a million in obvious fashion, I would agree that people should prefer to self-quarantine. The evidence I have seen and heard was that the high rate and number of deaths have been concentrated to a few areas and for no more than a month or two -- in the States. This did not deserve a shutdown of the other 45 or so states.

                              The people getting sick would have had to be more numerous than what I saw. (The shape of the so-called death curve would have been higher in March before people quarantined. The data does not match with the fear that was caused. ) The media would have to stop lying -- making up fake activity around hospitals and making fake claims about the number of deaths in certain cities that I examined. I had done the analysis, for example, of Dallas County after it made the news in around June. There were no statistics to support the scary news stories.
                              We only locked down places that had outbreaks. Why would you lockdown areas where there are none? Who did that?

                              Sydney had a two week lockdown back in April and that pretty much killed the outbreak and things have been pretty normal since then.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                If Covid is finally totally gone from Australia, properly this time, then we might be able to have a reopened border Australia - New Zealand shared covid-free travel area. Lots of people would like to have holidays in the other country again I think.
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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