Originally posted by casaba
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New Zealand concentration camps
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"My favorite color in the alphabet is three." - Donald J. Trump
"The 'J' in my middle name stands for 'Jenius'" - Donald J. Trump
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Originally posted by Reepicheep View PostIn addition, NZ is the location of Middle Earth, and you Kiwis keep putting up great haka videos on youtube."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI seem to recall one of the other conspiracy theories the crazies had a while back went "UN something something Agenda 21 something something Put people in hobbit holes".
Personally, I'm quite looking forward to living in a hobbit hole, although at 6' 2" tall I suspect I'll be banging my head a lot.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/joeydurso/c...s-agenda-21-5g"My favorite color in the alphabet is three." - Donald J. Trump
"The 'J' in my middle name stands for 'Jenius'" - Donald J. Trump
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostJust to be clear, by 'lock up' in the context of NZ quarantine, you're referring to a taxpayer-funded hotel stay (or taxpayer funded hospital stay if they're sick enough to need it) until they're better.
It's New Zealand or NZ, not zland, just like it's the US or America not ustates or samerica.
Sweden and NZ are generally pretty similar countries in many respects. Both smallish liberal democracies that lean progressive and somewhat libertarian and a little bit socialistic. They've just taken somewhat different approaches to Covid - NZ opted to try and keep it out of the country completely via border closures and lockdowns if necessary. That's generally been very successful, and most people around the world seem to quite reasonably regard NZ as the world's Covid success-story. The all-cause mortality rate in NZ in 2020 has been way lower than usual years, because not only do we seem to have kept Covid out, we've also apparently kept out the flu too, which has resulted in many fewer-than-normal deaths. Sweden on the other hand, in spite of their attempts to have social distancing, hasn't done very well with respect to covid cases and deaths and their approach to Covid seems to be generally viewed as a policy failure.
I wasn't quite sure what you meant here by New Zealand's latest move. But looking at the article (which is a month and a half old), I think you might be referring to the idea of moving a few people into the quarantine facilities who had been exposed to Covid infection that had slipped past the border security? Again, it's a fully-funded 1-3 week hotel stay for them until they test negative / recover. And the numbers we are talking about here are in terms of compulsory quarantining of exposed people in the community are like ~50 people total.
Whereas the number of people in the border hotel quarantine facilities at any given time - i.e. people who chose to enter the country knowing they would have to spend 2 weeks in a hotel - is ~5000 at any given time.
Good luck finding enough hotel rooms for that many people and good luck paying for it. I imagine there's a lot of people on the streets of those cities who'd love to be shouted a luxury hotel stay with food included, so if you're feeling rich and charitable, I'm sure there's demand.
They are zealand camps, so what do we care? We just look to the latest liberal tactics and expect dingbat liberals here to take up the cause.
Maybe Joey can use his magical liberal powers to make it happen?
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostJust to be clear, by 'lock up' in the context of NZ quarantine, you're referring to a taxpayer-funded hotel stay (or taxpayer funded hospital stay if they're sick enough to need it) until they're better.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
So you are saying that they ARE forcing people who have COVID into mandatory quarantine in government controlled facilities, rather than letting them stay at home? That sound's like overreach to me. Maybe not death camps but still extreme. If someone is sick enough they should be in a hospital, and if not, they should just stay home. If they want to offer the hotels as optional (so you don't infect your family) that would be one thing but mandatory lockup? yeesh.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
I'm often shocked at how willing some people are to surrender their essential liberties to the government in exchange for the promise of a little temporary safety.
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Originally posted by Reepicheep View Post
I thought I knew of most of the right wing/Trumpian/Tea Party conspiracy theories, but that is a new one to me. A google search reveals that, not only is this particular conspiracy theory still going strong, it has been revealed that the coronavirus is the mechanism the Totalitarian World Government is using to bring about the implementation of Agenda 21.
Personally, I'm quite looking forward to living in a hobbit hole, although at 6' 2" tall I suspect I'll be banging my head a lot.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/joeydurso/c...s-agenda-21-5g
America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostJust to be clear, by 'lock up' in the context of NZ quarantine, you're referring to a taxpayer-funded hotel stay (or taxpayer funded hospital stay if they're sick enough to need it) until they're better.
It's New Zealand or NZ, not zland, just like it's the US or America not ustates or samerica.
Sweden and NZ are generally pretty similar countries in many respects. Both smallish liberal democracies that lean progressive and somewhat libertarian and a little bit socialistic. They've just taken somewhat different approaches to Covid - NZ opted to try and keep it out of the country completely via border closures and lockdowns if necessary. That's generally been very successful, and most people around the world seem to quite reasonably regard NZ as the world's Covid success-story. The all-cause mortality rate in NZ in 2020 has been way lower than usual years, because not only do we seem to have kept Covid out, we've also apparently kept out the flu too, which has resulted in many fewer-than-normal deaths. Sweden on the other hand, in spite of their attempts to have social distancing, hasn't done very well with respect to covid cases and deaths and their approach to Covid seems to be generally viewed as a policy failure.
I wasn't quite sure what you meant here by New Zealand's latest move. But looking at the article (which is a month and a half old), I think you might be referring to the idea of moving a few people into the quarantine facilities who had been exposed to Covid infection that had slipped past the border security? Again, it's a fully-funded 1-3 week hotel stay for them until they test negative / recover. And the numbers we are talking about here are in terms of compulsory quarantining of exposed people in the community are like ~50 people total.
Whereas the number of people in the border hotel quarantine facilities at any given time - i.e. people who chose to enter the country knowing they would have to spend 2 weeks in a hotel - is ~5000 at any given time.
Good luck finding enough hotel rooms for that many people and good luck paying for it. I imagine there's a lot of people on the streets of those cities who'd love to be shouted a luxury hotel stay with food included, so if you're feeling rich and charitable, I'm sure there's demand.
America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
I'm often shocked at how willing some people are to surrender their essential liberties to the government in exchange for the promise of a little temporary safety.
You would think they would look at what Harry Reid did, and think it was a bad idea to touch the filibuster. Or that a Republican President in the future could put through another additional dozen conservative justices to the court, just because they can.
It's like petulant folly.
The reasons those types of things were in place was because those in the past were smarter than them. They think they are the smartest people who have ever lived. They have become dumber and short sighted.
The only good thing to come from this election is separating the socialists from the rest of us, a clear delineation. People have no excuse to be ignorant anymore. If you vote for Democrats, then you vote for socialism, whether people like it or not.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
I'm often shocked at how willing some people are to surrender their essential liberties to the government in exchange for the promise of a little temporary safety.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
From what I have read there are only a handful of people who are COVID positive in NZ anyway, Seems like going on mandatory quarantine at an isolated facility, even if it is a hotel, is over-reacting.
An aside, back to me lamenting on how fractured discussion here has become: I remember discussing items here with you, Sparko, 12 or 13 years ago, and there was honest discussion. Sure, there were some headcases (sorry, but I see Mountain Man is still here) but discussion was possible. Here, now, in this thread, there are two separate chats in progress: Rightists (in my opinion, unfounded) complaints that the NZ approach is unacceptable, and Leftists cracking jokes together and each side calling the other names. Not sure how long I'll stick around.
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Originally posted by casaba View Post
How about the idea that the reason that there are so few cases in NZ is that they force quarantine those who test positive rather that depend on the honor system that people will stay home with no visitors? If so, is this admitted intrusion on personal liberty unwarranted? Seems like a valid point of discussion.
An aside, back to me lamenting on how fractured discussion here has become: I remember discussing items here with you, Sparko, 12 or 13 years ago, and there was honest discussion. Sure, there were some headcases (sorry, but I see Mountain Man is still here) but discussion was possible. Here, now, in this thread, there are two separate chats in progress: Rightists (in my opinion, unfounded) complaints that the NZ approach is unacceptable, and Leftists cracking jokes together and each side calling the other names. Not sure how long I'll stick around.
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If you look at the graphs of cases you'll start seeing a sharp spike in the number of cases 2 to 3 weeks after they started. And coincidentally the group which experienced a tremendous increase in the number of cases just happened to be among the same age group that most of the rioters just happened to be.
Aren't sheer coincidences grand?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo you are saying that they ARE forcing people who have COVID into mandatory quarantine in government controlled facilities, rather than letting them stay at home?
Once the number of people with Covid was zero, and the borders were shut (to humans, mostly, except those going through quarantine), then, on an occasion where Covid got caught by someone working at the border (on imported goods I think it was) and passed onto a few friends and family and this small outbreak was detected, a decision was made by local equivalent of Dr Fauci to move those people to a guarded hotel. This decision was made basically because the government has learned over the course of this pandemic that people can't be trusted to do what's asked of them with regard to self-isolating, and they will always think of a reason some exception applies to them about why they totally need to just pop out to the supermarket or to a liquor store or just go to one funeral or something. A law here that has its origins in the days of the bubonic plague of the 19th century gives the chief medical office the power to order the quarantining of individuals in the event of a declared pandemic. In that sense it's not the politicians doing it, it 's a doctor doing it, and ordering their quarantining on medical grounds, if that makes you feel any differently on the subject. It's not the elected politicians giving themselves new totalitarian powers and chucking "muhuhuhahaha".
That sound's like overreach to me.
Remember this is happening against a background of zero cases in the country and people living their lives as normal. Your choice then becomes do you (a) let a few infected people infect the rest and have thousands of people die? or (b) quarantine the handful of infected people, and give them a cushy taxpayer funded hotel room and food for a couple of weeks? Perhaps it depends how much you value life over absolute free choice. I wouldn't have thought a "pro-life" person such as yourself would take a pro-choice position on this issue. But then, I would say that New Zealand as a whole is a country that values life very highly (and we see that in anti-war positions, no death penalty, assault weapons ban, police not routinely armed, government-funded healthcare etc) and that America doesn't (e.g. flip the previous positions for the US).
Maybe not death camps but still extreme.
If someone is sick enough they should be in a hospital, and if not, they should just stay home.
If they want to offer the hotels as optional (so you don't infect your family) that would be one thing but mandatory lockup? yeesh.Last edited by Starlight; 10-28-2020, 04:06 PM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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