Originally posted by Starlight
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Elites and the Masses
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"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostAnother thing that I, as a political observer, would say would help de-corrupt US politics, is an increase in the number of political parties. In order to do this you need to change the voting system from plurality voting to instant run-off voting. This can be done by individual states, as they have control over how federal congressional elections happen in their state. Maine has already changed to instant run-off, but other bigger states need to do so also. In my lifetime in my own country we've used both those systems, and the second one has far, far better outcomes and leads to more parties and better people being elected. You'll be shocked at how much it improves your political system."For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6
"Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom
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Thought this might be a good place to post this:
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThought this might be a good place to post this:
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThought this might be a good place to post this:"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Postthat why I put my emphasis on competency.
Of course, elites can also get their positions by virtue of having competent relatives. I'm thinking here particularly of 'fail-sons' as they are sometimes called, where a competent person earns wealth through effort but then their son grows up with a silver spoon in his mouth and never has to work for anything and turns out to be an incompetent layabout buffoon. Yet that fail-son will get given an endless amount of favours and money and positions by his father and others in the elite circles throughout his life just because of whose son he is. People point to that in cases like Hunter Biden and Donald Trump.
Originally posted by Thoughtful MonkAnother thing that I, as a political observer, would say would help de-corrupt US politics, is an increase in the number of political parties. In order to do this you need to change the voting system from plurality voting to instant run-off voting.
In my country when we changed our voting system 25 years ago away from plurality voting, we went from only 2 parties ever having representation, to 7 parties having representation in the next election. After the latest election here 3 days ago, we've dropped to 5 parties having representation, and for the first time one of those parties has over 50% of the seats and can govern alone without having to work cooperatively with any other party to form a government, and political commentators are discussing how small a number of parties that is, and whether such a small number is bad for our democracy. The consensus seems to be that these things move in natural cycles and it's likely to cycle back up against to the 7-8 party range within a couple of elections.
So I see the fundamental change needed in the US to be a change away from plurality voting. Other changes are pretty pointless by comparison. The plurality voting system is something that can be changed at the state level. Maine did it recently."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View PostFDR was president from 1933 to 1944. From '33 to '40, income inequality bounces around 45% and then starts dropping off. From this chart, appears the New Deal did little to change that.
Why the drop starting in '40? Obviously WWII begins and the US ramps up manufacturing to support the allied war effort. Since we needed many, many people working it's no wonder that more income went to them and inequality drops.
Why does the line stay low starting in '45? Simple: the US was the only functioning economy in the world. Europe and Japan are smoking ruins.
The only difference between the US and those European countries is that in Germany and France the drop in income for the elites relative to the rest of the populace has been largely preserved through to the present day. The UK though follows the US pattern of the 1980s and 1990s undoing the achievement of the 1940s, and the income returning to the elites at the expense of the working people. So what did the UK and the US have in common with respect to economic policy over the 80s/90s that France and Germany didn't share? The obvious answer is the deregulation programs of Reaganomics / Thatcherism. Both the US and UK embarked on very emphatic decade-long programs to change how their economies worked in favour of less government intervention and less taxes on the wealthy. Germany and France didn't.
We again had to work to support the world. Frankly I think this easily explains the line into through the 50's and into the 60's and 70's.
So why did the line start going up? The US stopped being a manufacturing powerhouse. Manufacturing was an industry someone with a high school education could do well at. When we started entering into free trade deals and our manufacturing jobs went to China, India, Mexico, etc., that's when inequality starts coming in.
So this graph is not a reflection of progressive US policy. It's a reflection of US economic dominance of the world economy and when that went away, income inequality went up."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostDoes it make you realize that the capitalist system you've been promoting leads to this sort of horrific inequality as the capitalistsacrossaccrue billions, and make you a convert to socialism?
"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostDoes it make you realize that the capitalist system you've been promoting leads to this sort of horrific inequality as the capitalists across billions, and make you a convert to socialism?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostLook at countries where Socialism was fully employed and you'll see the system with the greatest disparity of wealth.
So if you don't like those billionaires making all that money during the pandemic, if you don't like the country being run by elites, it's fairly clear from the example of the Scandinavian countries what sorts of things need to be done to prevent that."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostThe countries with the least income inequality are the Western countries that have most incorporated socialistic principles into their economies, such as the Scandinavian countries. There seems to be a fairly clear pattern across the Western countries, that the more they have socialistic principles they have put into their capitalist economies, the less income inequality that results.
So if you don't like those billionaires making all that money during the pandemic, if you don't like the country being run by elites, it's fairly clear from the example of the Scandinavian countries what sorts of things need to be done to prevent that.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostEastern Europe might want to talk to you about their experience. So would Venezuela and several other countries (and note that Venezuela was one of the richest countries in the world in the middle of the 20th century and the richest South American country until the Socialists sized power and turned it into a basket case).
Trying to compare apples with oranges gets very difficult. The examples you mention are too different to be interesting as there are too many uncontrolled variables."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI'm more interested in looking at what works well and what doesn't in Western countries, because we live in Western countries.
Trying to compare apples with oranges gets very difficult. The examples you mention are too different to be interesting as there are too many uncontrolled variables.
And how convenient of you to turn a blind eye on the one experiment in socialism in action taking place right before us. As I said, Venezuela was one of the richest countries in the world in the middle of the last century and was the wealthiest nation in South America right before your fellow travelers seized power and turned it into the dumpster fire we see before us.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI'll let my friends from Poland and Germany (she was raised in East Germany) know that you have proclaimed that they aren't western.
And how convenient of you to turn a blind eye on the one experiment in socialism in action taking place right before us.
As I said, Venezuela was one of the richest countries in the world in the middle of the last century and was the wealthiest nation in South America right before your fellow travelers seized power and turned it into the dumpster fire we see before us.
So when the price of oil was high, they could be among the richest nations in the world. And when the price of oil plummets, they are paupers. And when other nations decide to trade embargo their oil and their food, they become a disaster zone.
Compared to those factors, the internal government of Venezuela doesn't appear to be an important factor. This is why it is important not to compare apples and oranges."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
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