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  • Originally posted by thormas View Post

    I have, for a long time, accepted that atheism is as much a belief system as any religious position. The latter believes God is and the former that God is not: neither can prove their position.
    That is entirely correct. The atheist viewpoint concerning any [benign] theistic deity that takes a personal interest in human affairs is premised on the lack of evidence given the state of the world.

    Originally posted by thormas View Post
    I have also found that there are non-religious folks in the world - atheists and agnostics- who are as good and loving as any religious person, as any Christian, and I suspect, if - as the Christian professes - the will of the Father is that we love, then, even though the atheist doesn't accept that God is, s/he loves..............that is all that counts.
    Oh dear that will not sit well with the "We are right and you are wrong" view held by many who call themselves Christians.

    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by thormas View Post

      I have, for a long time, accepted that atheism is as much a belief system as any religious position. The latter believes God is and the former that God is not: neither can prove their position.

      I have also found that there are non-religious folks in the world - atheists and agnostics- who are as good and loving as any religious person, as any Christian, and I suspect, if - as the Christian professes - the will of the Father is that we love, then, even though the atheist doesn't accept that God is, s/he loves..............that is all that counts.
      It depends on what you mean by "prove their position". If you mean scientific proof, then you are correct, but that is a limitation of science, not religion. However, apart from science, there are many compelling arguments and much evidence in favor of theism, so it's not something people simply choose to believe without proof.

      As for whether or not someone can perform good acts apart from God, they can, but the Bible says that this will only condemn them on the Day of Judgment because it will serve as proof that they knew right from wrong, leaving them no defense for all the times they did wrong. The only people who will enter heaven are those who have Jesus Christ as their advocate.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by thormas View Post

        I have, for a long time, accepted that atheism is as much a belief system as any religious position. The latter believes God is and the former that God is not: neither can prove their position.

        I have also found that there are non-religious folks in the world - atheists and agnostics- who are as good and loving as any religious person, as any Christian, and I suspect, if - as the Christian professes - the will of the Father is that we love, then, even though the atheist doesn't accept that God is, s/he loves..............that is all that counts.
        i think your counter is broken.

        Christ made it plain what He commands. People either follow what Christ commands, or measure themselves against themselves.

        They will usually come up with being a good person when comparing themselves with themselves. The world is apparently full of good people.

        Well, American Evangelicals could be the exception. Atheists are always telling me how bad they are.
        Last edited by Maranatha; 10-17-2020, 09:23 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          That is entirely correct. The atheist viewpoint concerning any [benign] theistic deity that takes a personal interest in human affairs is premised on the lack of evidence given the state of the world.

          Oh dear that will not sit well with the "We are right and you are wrong" view held by many who call themselves Christians.
          Sadly you are right but in many Christian circles it is less and less who believe they are right and the rest of the children of God are wrong.........or worse, bad people. Where there is love, there is God or else God is not God.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by thormas View Post

            Sadly you are right but in many Christian circles it is less and less who believe they are right and the rest of the children of God are wrong.........or worse, bad people. Where there is love, there is God or else God is not God.
            More love would be a good thing.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              It depends on what you mean by "prove their position". If you mean scientific proof, then you are correct, but that is a limitation of science, not religion. However, apart from science, there are many compelling arguments and much evidence in favor of theism, so it's not something people simply choose to believe without proof.

              As for whether or not someone can perform good acts apart from God, they can, but the Bible says that this will only condemn them on the Day of Judgment because it will serve as proof that they knew right from wrong, leaving them no defense for all the times they did wrong. The only people who will enter heaven are those who have Jesus Christ as their advocate.

              I agree there is no scientific proof: science is the study of the objects, the many things that make up the universe - and God is no thing. God is the very possibility that there is any-thing at all.

              There are some interesting and even somewhat compelling arguments however they are not proofs and there is no real 'evidence.' What one sees as evidence or proof of the theistic God, others do not and it cannot be said this is because they don't belief for that would mean that the evidence is only there when seen through the eyes of faith. So ours is actually belief - without proof.

              I disagree on the meaning of what you refer to in the Bible. And I did always like when Jesus said (and I paraphrase) "it is not the one who says Lord, Lord........it is the one who does the will of the Father.' We know the will of the God who is love and it is to love. Therefore if one loves, they have done and are doing the will of God.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by thormas View Post


                I agree there is no scientific proof: science is the study of the objects, the many things that make up the universe - and God is no thing. God is the very possibility that there is any-thing at all.

                There are some interesting and even somewhat compelling arguments however they are not proofs and there is no real 'evidence.' What one sees as evidence or proof of the theistic God, others do not and it cannot be said this is because they don't belief for that would mean that the evidence is only there when seen through the eyes of faith. So ours is actually belief - without proof.

                I disagree on the meaning of what you refer to in the Bible. And I did always like when Jesus said (and I paraphrase) "it is not the one who says Lord, Lord........it is the one who does the will of the Father.' We know the will of the God who is love and it is to love. Therefore if one loves, they have done and are doing the will of God.
                The will of the Father is to believe the Son.

                Truly, if the Son tells one something, it would be wise to listen.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Maranatha View Post

                  i think your counter is broken.

                  Christ made it plain what He commands. People either follow what Christ commands, or measure themselves against themselves.

                  They will usually come up with being a good person when comparing themselves with themselves. The world is apparently full of good people.

                  Well, American Evangelicals could be the exception. Atheists are always telling me how bad they are.
                  The two great commandments my friend and the two are simply one: Love. This is the only command or better the only call and invitation of Jesus.

                  Good lord if only the world were truly full of good people for what makes one good but love? The man who rushes into one of the Towers on 911 is good; the woman doctor who risks and then gives her life while treating those with Covid is good, the ordinary human being who will not accept prejudice or racism of any kind, is good. What is good if it is not love? Show anybody love and they will say "it is good.' We say that God created everything and it was an act of love and then God said "it is good."

                  You seem to judge too harshly whereas if you judge in love, you would see that love is good and we can only hope that the day will come when the world is truly full of 'good people.'

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post

                    More love would be a good thing.
                    Amen.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Maranatha View Post

                      The will of the Father is to believe the Son.

                      Truly, if the Son tells one something, it would be wise to listen.
                      And what is the Son if he is not the Love of God incarnate? So one can believe in and live love and still not believe that God is. For more and more the theistic notion of God is problematic.

                      The Son also tells us to not judge (which would seem to include all the non-Christians or those you assume do not believe Love). So much for listening, so much for wisdom.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by thormas View Post

                        The two great commandments my friend and the two are simply one: Love. This is the only command or better the only call and invitation of Jesus.

                        Good lord if only the world were truly full of good people for what makes one good but love? The man who rushes into one of the Towers on 911 is good; the woman doctor who risks and then gives her life while treating those with Covid is good, the ordinary human being who will not accept prejudice or racism of any kind, is good. What is good if it is not love? Show anybody love and they will say "it is good.' We say that God created everything and it was an act of love: he said "it is good."

                        You seem to judge too harshly whereas if you judge in love, you would see that love is good and we can only hope that the day will come when the world is truly full of 'good people.'
                        I can only judge by the Sons measure, and the Son has said a lot about how He judges. The Son of man, who do you say He is?

                        ​​​​​I agree with Christ in every way, I just consider all that Christ says.

                        You can hope this world fills up with all these good people, but I don't see it. Rather I listen to Christ and love nothing in this world of men.

                        And I do acknowledge Christ before all men because if men do not, then the Son will not acknowledge those men to the Father.

                        And really, when a believer talks of love, it is the love inspired by the Holy Spirit living within them, and the Son has made it clear that those without the Spirit do not know the love of God.

                        It is the fruit of the Spirit that matters, and without Him, then men have no part of God.

                        All these things are true, all these things are told to us by the Son.

                        So as men bleat their appreciation of love and only measure men by it, or think others judge too harshly, I will merely remind you of all that the Son has said to us.

                        God made men to show compassion, to love. I also find that all men show these things in their lives at times, even the worst. After all, who doesn't know how to give good gifts to their children?

                        But that is not what gains entry to God.

                        I think you know that if you've read the gospels.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by thormas View Post

                          And what is the Son if he is not the Love of God incarnate? So one can believe in and live love and still not believe that God is. For more and more the theistic notion of God is problematic.

                          The Son also tells us to not judge (which would seem to include all the non-Christians or those you assume do not believe Love). So much for listening, so much for wisdom.
                          Who is judging you but yourself? It is certainly not me.

                          If you have a problem with the Son saying the will of the Father is to believe the Son, then your problem is not with me.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by thormas View Post

                            And what is the Son if he is not the Love of God incarnate? So one can believe in and live love and still not believe that God is. For more and more the theistic notion of God is problematic.

                            The Son also tells us to not judge (which would seem to include all the non-Christians or those you assume do not believe Love). So much for listening, so much for wisdom.
                            I just LOVE when unbelievers think they are quoting scripture to believers as if they understand it.

                            If you know anything about God, you know He is righteous and just along with being loving. He also hates sin. And His judgment will fall on unbelievers. That is why Jesus came, to reconcile sinners to God. In His human body He showed love for others, but He also showed judgment. Don't forget about those passages in your holier-than-thou smugness.

                            And the passage about not judging? That's referring to making judgments based on something that you yourself is guilty of, and it is also referring to judging other believers.. You can't judge another believer when you are guilty of the same thing you are judging them for. It is NOT referring to believers judging unbelievers for their lack of belief as shown in their words and actions.

                            If you're going to quote scripture, at least get the context right, and stop cherry-picking to support your view.

                            Oh, and God will judge you for your unbelief. Be very sure of that. So I suggest you get familiar with His wrath now and turn to belief before you die, because you will certainly feel His wrath then.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by thormas View Post
                              I disagree on the meaning of what you refer to in the Bible. And I did always like when Jesus said (and I paraphrase) "it is not the one who says Lord, Lord........it is the one who does the will of the Father.' We know the will of the God who is love and it is to love. Therefore if one loves, they have done and are doing the will of God.
                              It is God's will that we repent and accept his forgiveness through the death and resurrection of his Son. That is the only path to salvation. Works of "love" won't do it. Indeed, the Bible is clear that there are those who will stand before God on their day of judgment and say, "But, Lord, didn't we do many great works in your name?" and he will say, "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • Y
                                Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                                I just LOVE when unbelievers think they are quoting scripture to believers as if they understand it.

                                If you know anything about God, you know He is righteous and just along with being loving. He also hates sin. And His judgment will fall on unbelievers. That is why Jesus came, to reconcile sinners to God. In His human body He showed love for others, but He also showed judgment. Don't forget about those passages in your holier-than-thou smugness.

                                And the passage about not judging? That's referring to making judgments based on something that you yourself is guilty of, and it is also referring to judging other believers.. You can't judge another believer when you are guilty of the same thing you are judging them for. It is NOT referring to believers judging unbelievers for their lack of belief as shown in their words and actions.

                                If you're going to quote scripture, at least get the context right, and stop cherry-picking to support your view.

                                Oh, and God will judge you for your unbelief. Be very sure of that. So I suggest you get familiar with His wrath now and turn to belief before you die, because you will certainly feel His wrath then.
                                You seem very confident that you are fully cognizant with the mind of God. Is that not just a little presumptuous?
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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