First Presidential Debate

[Maranatha]

Again, I've not said anything about supporting Biden being 'more righteous' than not supporting him. The point I have made is that defending Donald Trump's excess and immorality is inconsistent with following Christ. There is a huge difference between believing the choice between two evil men must be decided one way or another and staunchly defending at every turn the gross immorality of one of those men. My belief is that donald trump is a level of evil orders of magnitude beyond what is found in his democratic alternative, not that one choice is righteous and the other unrighteous. The choice is still between two flawed human beings. And I no more support gross immorality from biden than I do Donald Trump.

However, I would point out that the responses to my words expose no less in those posting than than the accusations they contain towards me.

My purpose is to call those willing to sacrifice their souls on the alter that is Trump away from such self destructive behaviour. Christ is our Lord, and we must in all our words and actions in this life do our very best to reflect who He is into this world. Supporting Trump (or any political leader) when they do explicit and gross evil is the antithesis of the obligation to be ambassadors for Christ in this world.

So then I can also say Biden supporters know not what they do, because they support a slimy politician who enriches himself through his wayward children, and admitted a quid pro quo with Ukraine as a braggart in front of our faces. And that is just the beginning. Don't forget he did a number on black people with his crime bill.

I don't care about your beliefs on politics, but if you feel the need to invoke the Lord of glory about others politics, then they can invoke the Lord upon you.

My purpose is to get liberals and leftist to quit invoking the Lord as backing them against the evil orange man.

As we've already agreed, He is not on either side.

I think if any man wants God to judge Trump, I don't think the Lord will stop there, He will judge us all, including your man Joe. Pity the fool who doesn't trust Jesus Christ.

[oxmixmudd]

So then I can also say Biden supporters know not what they do, because they support a slimy politician who enriches himself through his wayward children, and admitted a quid pro quo with Ukraine as a braggart in front of our faces. And that is just the beginning. Don't forget he did a number on black people with his crime bill.

You can, but you'd likely be just trying to create an artificially exaggerated view of Biden's potential failures in order to justify supporting Trump. There is no real comparison of the corruption and out and out bald faced lying that is part of the Trump administration and any other administration in my own lifetime, including that of Nixon. But with human beings, it is always going to be a matter of degree. And so the person that wishes to justify gross evil can always find something in someone else to toss out as a counter example.

But supposing one could do that, create some sort of rough equivalence - then how does that justify supporting either one or the other WRT the actual sinful activity? I'm not talking about having to choose between two evils here and picking the best one can. I'm talking about all in support of them IN their evil.

I don't care about your beliefs on politics, but if you feel the need to invoke the Lord of glory about others politics, then they can invoke the Lord upon you.

They can. But I think you're in a wrong category here. Following God doesn't disappear when we start talking about politicians, neither does our responsibility to represent what is good and Godly. What is good and Godly is fairly well defined in many cases - certainly in the ones we've been discussing here. So this isn't a relative thing, it's an absolute thing. And if we are going to state there is nothing wrong with forcing two secret service men into a car with a man carrying an infectious and potentially fatal disease so said person can wave at crowds (vs say a video or twitter tweet), then the immorality of that still exists regardless, and if we are Christians that proclaim Christ as Lord, then we are saying that a Christian finds such an act to be acceptable, which desecrates the name of our Lord.

My purpose is to get liberals and leftist to quit invoking the Lord as backing them against the evil orange man.

As we've already agreed, He is not on either side.

I think if any man wants God to judge Trump, I don't think the Lord will stop there, He will judge us all, including your man Joe. Pity the fool who doesn't trust Jesus Christ.

The biggest problem I see with this sort of thinking is that we do, in fact, have an influence on the world. We are the "light of the World" as Christ said. And further, Christ says we don't hide that light under a basket, nor is salt good if it has lost its flavor. I'm not talking about saying God is on some politicians side. I'm saying that Christians can't be all in with the immorality of ANY politician. The focus on Trump only exists because the problem is that the evangelical church is simply turning a blind eye to gross immorality wrt Trump.

[Mountain Man]

I don't care about your beliefs on politics, but if you feel the need to invoke the Lord of glory about others politics, then they can invoke the Lord upon you.

I've observed before that the only way to meet ox's high self-righteous standards is to entirely abstain from politics, because no matter who you vote for will be guilty of something that those with false piety will be able to throw in your face and say, "How dare you support this sinner!" The only out for ox is to hypocritically declare that some sins are more "acceptable" than others with him being the sole arbiter of what those sins are.

[Mountain Man]

And if we are going to state there is nothing wrong with forcing two secret service men into a car...

Are you truly incapable of honesty? Where is your evidence that the President "forced" the secret servant agents to accompany him in the vehicle? I highlighted your truth-challenged accusations in an earlier post:

ox, your accusations are false. You keep criticizing the President for his brief drive-by to graciously thank his supporters, but your criticisms are not based on the facts, and when the facts were pointed out to you in the other thread -- that the drive-by had the full approval of the President's medical team, and that the secret service agents in the vehicle wore appropriate protective gear -- you suddenly decided, without a lick of evidence, that the President must have ordered them to do it against their will, or that the President's doctors were incompetent at best and guilty of malpractice at worst. It was nothing but idle speculation on your part, and yet you continue to condemn the President based on your own imaginations instead of the facts. And now you have the gall to lecture about spiritual things?

You are are the very model of self-righteousness and hypocrisy.

[oxmixmudd]

I've observed before that the only way to meet ox's high self-righteous standards is to entirely abstain from politics, because no matter who you vote for will be guilty of something that those with false piety will be able to throw in your face and say, "How dare you support this sinner!" The only out for ox is to hypocritically declare that some sins are more "acceptable" than others with him being the sole arbiter of what those sins are.

Yeah - 'high self-righteous standards' == expecting the President to respect the life and health of those around him. To not needlessly expose his chief protection detail to a deadly disease he is carrying. To not knowingly meet unmasked with others after being notified of a positive result, to not on return from Walter Reed still infectious remove his mask and walk into the white house and contaminate it all over again.

You are good at spinning the text MM. But my standards are not by any means particularly high wrt to what I have called out wrt Trump. But you demand they be even lower. Nevertheless I do draw the line at 'homicidal negligence' as what Trump has done has been described. Or the negligence that has left more than 210,000 dead from Covid, over 100,000 of whom should have never died. Or <insert over the top violation of basic humanity here>. Trump is not like anyone else so far. Pick any standard from the last 50 years of what can be 'overlooked' from a sitting President and Trump's record from the last 4 years will overpower that tolerance specification.

[oxmixmudd]

Are you truly incapable of honesty? Where is your evidence that the President "forced" the secret servant agents to accompany him in the vehicle? I highlighted your truth-challenged accusations in an earlier post:

Again - you are good a 'spinning' text - but the result of your spin is nothing less than to lie about what the reality is. If the president wants to go on a car ride, then the people driving it have been forced to get into the car with him. A person in the position of POTUS forces others to do that which is required to protect them. By requesting that car ride, he forced the men in the car with him to be subject to potential infection with a fatal disease - and that for a purely frivolous reason. That is gross negligence on his part. The human thing to do, the mature thing to do, is to recognize the danger that request puts them in and to - for their sake - choose not to satisfy that wholly narcissistic need for attention. There is no other answer here.

Those men and women put their lives on the line every day to protect POTUS. But not for frivolous reasons MM. It is their selfless sacrifice for this country and for Trump himself. For Trump to then abuse that choice on their part is evil on his part. This is the simple reality of the situation.

[Maranatha]

You can, but you'd likely be just trying to create an artificially exaggerated view of Biden's potential failures in order to justify supporting Trump. There is no real comparison of the corruption and out and out bald faced lying that is part of the Trump administration and any other administration in my own lifetime, including that of Nixon. But with human beings, it is always going to be a matter of degree. And so the person that wishes to justify gross evil can always find something in someone else to toss out as a counter example.

But supposing one could do that, create some sort of rough equivalence - then how does that justify supporting either one or the other WRT the actual sinful activity? I'm not talking about having to choose between two evils here and picking the best one can. I'm talking about all in support of them IN their evil.



They can. But I think you're in a wrong category here. Following God doesn't disappear when we start talking about politicians, neither does our responsibility to represent what is good and Godly. What is good and Godly is fairly well defined in many cases - certainly in the ones we've been discussing here. So this isn't a relative thing, it's an absolute thing. And if we are going to state there is nothing wrong with forcing two secret service men into a car with a man carrying an infectious and potentially fatal disease so said person can wave at crowds (vs say a video or twitter tweet), then the immorality of that still exists regardless, and if we are Christians that proclaim Christ as Lord, then we are saying that a Christian finds such an act to be acceptable, which desecrates the name of our Lord.


The biggest problem I see with this sort of thinking is that we do, in fact, have an influence on the world. We are the "light of the World" as Christ said. And further, Christ says we don't hide that light under a basket, nor is salt good if it has lost its flavor. I'm not talking about saying God is on some politicians side. I'm saying that Christians can't be all in with the immorality of ANY politician. The focus on Trump only exists because the problem is that the evangelical church is simply turning a blind eye to gross immorality wrt Trump.

Your bigger problem is you condemn yourself by your own judgement.

You can make judgement against whomever you want, but your judgement is meted back to you in the same measure. Gird up the loins man.

Like I said, you can keep your politics that you feel is a "light to the world", even if you know Christ is the light in this world. Scripture will just not bend to your apologetic.

[Mountain Man]

Again - you are good a 'spinning' text - but the result of your spin is nothing less than to lie about what the reality is. If the president wants to go on a car ride, then the people driving it have been forced to get into the car with him. A person in the position of POTUS forces others to do that which is required to protect them. By requesting that car ride, he forced the men in the car with him to be subject to potential infection with a fatal disease - and that for a purely frivolous reason. That is gross negligence on his part. The human thing to do, the mature thing to do, is to recognize the danger that request puts them in and to - for their sake - choose not to satisfy that wholly narcissistic need for attention. There is no other answer here.

Those men and women put their lives on the line every day to protect POTUS. But not for frivolous reasons MM. It is their selfless sacrifice for this country and for Trump himself. For Trump to then abuse that choice on their part is evil on his part. This is the simple reality of the situation.

I'll repeat: 1) Trump's medical staff was fully on board with this; and 2) the secret service agents took the necessary precautions to protect themselves. Those are the facts we know. Those are the only facts we know. Anything you suggest beyond that is nothing but your own vain imaginations. You are no lover of truth.

[oxmixmudd]

I'll repeat: 1) Trump's medical staff was fully on board with this; and 2) the secret service agents took the necessary precautions to protect themselves. Those are the facts we know. Those are the only facts we know. Anything you suggest beyond that is nothing but your own vain imaginations. You are no lover of truth.

(1) It doesn't matter MM. The medical community outside those with no choice but to do what trump demanded is aghast at what they did. It was wrong to do it.

(2) you take necessary precautions to do necessary things. A joyride to wave at people is not a necessary thing.

And you can play the ad hominem game all day long and it will not change the fact that Trump has shown absolute disregard for the life and well being of those assigned to protect him. He has acted in with complete negligence and irresponsibility throughout this pandemic, and his actions sunday through today show just how base, how inhumane, how selfish, and how mentally deranged he actually is.

[oxmixmudd]

Your bigger problem is you condemn yourself by your own judgement.

You can make judgement against whomever you want, but your judgement is meted back to you in the same measure. Gird up the loins man.

Like I said, you can keep your politics that you feel is a "light to the world", even if you know Christ is the light in this world. Scripture will just not bend to your apologetic.

I'm not sure you've actually even said anything here beyond you dont agree with me and you despise what I've said. And here I thought there was a glimmer of hope for a meaningful conversation.

[Mountain Man]

It doesn't matter MM.

Right, facts don't matter to you. You'll just make up your own "facts" as you self-righteously spit your venomous hatred at the President.

[Maranatha]

I'm not sure you've actually even said anything here beyond you dont agree with me and you despise what I've said. And here I thought there was a glimmer of hope for a meaningful conversation.

I just feel pity for you, that's all. You don't know what you do.

[oxmixmudd]

I just feel pity for you, that's all. You don't know what you do.

Try understanding rather than despising the person you disagree with. A much better path that is.

Again I note. My comments are against donald trumps behavior. Behavior that objectively and clearly violates christs teachings about life and love for our neighbor. I also point out it is inconsistent for a christian to support such behaviour.

You, Mm, Ronson, seanD focus your posts on deriding and demeaning who I am, on libeling my character and my beliefs.

the difference could not be clearer. I wonder if you understand what it is you are doing?

[oxmixmudd]

<lies about what was said and who I am removed>

[Mountain Man]

<lies truth about what was said and who I am removed>

You really don't like it when people tell the truth about you, do you?