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School ‘Correct’ to Ban U.S. Flag T-Shirts for Campus Safety

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Paprika View Post
    It means the school administrators are inept.
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Exactly. And all this "zero tolerance" stuff in our schools is a result of our administrators being too cowardly to make good judgement calls.
    Good judgment? How much do you want to bet those kids' parents who sued to keep the kids' shirts wouldn't have sued if dear little Johnnie got a black eye? You can call the administrators cowards or accuse them of bad judgment, but you can't have both.

    I'm guessing both of you would have done the same.

    As ever, Jesse

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
      Good judgment? How much do you want to bet those kids' parents who sued to keep the kids' shirts wouldn't have sued if dear little Johnnie got a black eye? You can call the administrators cowards or accuse them of bad judgment, but you can't have both.

      I'm guessing both of you would have done the same.
      Where did I say anything about judgment or cowardice?

      Comment


      • #93
        CMD's linked quotation illustrates what is most problematic about this, in my view. The most ingenious ways to shut down discourse are to rig the system to shut it down.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
          Good judgment? How much do you want to bet those kids' parents who sued to keep the kids' shirts wouldn't have sued if dear little Johnnie got a black eye? You can call the administrators cowards or accuse them of bad judgment, but you can't have both.
          Calm yourself, brother. I was thinking of the stupid administrators who suspend a straight-A student because his mom accidentally left a butter knife in his lunch box when she made his peanut butter and jelly sandwich, because the "zero tolerance" policy doesn't allow them the discretion to make an exception. Or the school system that suspends an elementary school kid and labels him a sexual predator because he hugged a girl.

          I'm guessing both of you would have done the same.

          As ever, Jesse
          This is America --- you have the freedom to be wrong.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Paprika View Post
            Where did I say anything about judgment or cowardice?
            That was me, and I stand by what I said.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              http://nation.time.com/2014/02/28/sc...campus-safety/

              OK, so some students were wearing American Flag t-shirts in a school that is basically 50% American 50% Hispanic.
              I think it was Cinco de Mayo (May 5th - Mexican Holiday).

              The court ruled that the safety of the school outweighed the freedom of the students to exercise their First Amendment rights of free speech.

              For Christians, this may also have a "don't use your liberty as a stumbling block" component.

              What say ye?
              Originally posted by Paprika View Post
              It means the school administrators are inept.
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Exactly. And all this "zero tolerance" stuff in our schools is a result of our administrators being too cowardly to make good judgement calls.
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Calm yourself, brother. I was thinking of the stupid administrators who suspend a straight-A student because his mom accidentally left a butter knife in his lunch box when she made his peanut butter and jelly sandwich, because the "zero tolerance" policy doesn't allow them the discretion to make an exception. Or the school system that suspends an elementary school kid and labels him a sexual predator because he hugged a girl.
              An admirable display of disguising your thoughts, then. Heck, even I, with all the care I took to follow the chain of posts, didn't see that coming.

              This is America --- you have the freedom to be wrong.
              You're right.

              *ba-dum-tish*

              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              That was me, and I stand by what I said.
              Exactly.

              As ever, Jesse

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                An admirable display of disguising your thoughts, then.
                When you take the "text" out of "context", all you have left is a "con"
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Lao, I thought you would be more of an advocate of the right of free speech/expression. May I assume that you would be outraged if a school official ordered a student to turn their shirt inside out if they wore one with the image of, say Che Guevara, on Presidents Day (or Memorial Day, or Veteran's Day or Independence Day)? Or if they wore a shirt with a flag of any different country aside from the U.S. on it on Flag Day or some of the other holidays mentioned above[1]? Force them to turn it inside out? How about someone wearing a rainbow flag on Flag Day? What about a shirt depicting the red Japanese rising sun on Pearl Harbor Day?

                  What about someone wearing a shirt from a heavy metal band with Satanic imagery on it coming to school on Good Friday or Ash Wednesday? Should they be forced to turn it inside out to keep from provoking someone (assuming they're permitted to wear those shirts on other days)?

                  Should the schools be allowed to ask students to cover decals on their car windows or bumper stickers on certain days because they are afraid they might incite someone to vandalize the vehicles?

                  I'm just wondering how consistently you want to apply these rules (and apologize if you have already responded to similar questions since I haven't read the entire thread).





                  1. Yes I realize that several of those days take place when schools aren't normally in session but let's ignore that for the sake or argument or assume that we're talking about summer school or something.
                  Last edited by rogue06; 03-01-2014, 01:51 PM.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    May I assume that you would be outraged if a school official ordered a student to turn their shirt inside out if they wore one with the image of, say Che Guevara, on Presidents Day (or Memorial Day, or Veteran's Day or Independence Day)? Or if they wore a shirt with a flag of any different country aside from the U.S. on it on Flag Day or some of the other holidays mentioned above[1]? Force them to turn it inside out? How about someone wearing a rainbow flag on Flag Day? What about a shirt depicting the red Japanese rising sun on Pearl Harbor Day?
                    The context here is not simply the apparel, it's also the history of violence. Both must be considered. In the last case, ESPECIALLY if there had been a history of violence, yes, I would certainly support censoring those wearing Japanese flag shirts ... especially if they were wearing the battle flag.

                    Looking only at the context of the garb, and ignoring the violence aspect, results in a very incomplete picture.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Outis View Post
                      The context here is not simply the apparel, it's also the history of violence. Both must be considered. In the last case, ESPECIALLY if there had been a history of violence, yes, I would certainly support censoring those wearing Japanese flag shirts ... especially if they were wearing the battle flag.

                      Looking only at the context of the garb, and ignoring the violence aspect, results in a very incomplete picture.
                      And when I started the thread, I knew I didn't have all the facts yet, which is why I ended the OP with a question. I assumed more facts would come out, and they did.

                      I believe I even made reference to the "using your liberty as a stumbling block" principle for Christians - meaning that I support their right to wear the flag t-shirts UNLESS it was a calculated effort to incite violence. Same as yelling "fire" in a crowded theater -- there comes a time when responsibility has to temper liberty.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • I realize another thing I did -- I used the exact headline from the article as the title for the thread, which, in retrospect, wasn't very smart. It may have caused some to believe that was my "position".

                        (At least it was spelled correctly )
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Lao, I thought you would be more of an advocate of the right of free speech/expression. May I assume that you would be outraged if a school official ordered a student to turn their shirt inside out if they wore one with the image of, say Che Guevara, on Presidents Day (or Memorial Day, or Veteran's Day or Independence Day)? Or if they wore a shirt with a flag of any different country aside from the U.S. on it on Flag Day or some of the other holidays mentioned above[1]? Force them to turn it inside out? How about someone wearing a rainbow flag on Flag Day? What about a shirt depicting the red Japanese rising sun on Pearl Harbor Day?

                          What about someone wearing a shirt from a heavy metal band with Satanic imagery on it coming to school on Good Friday or Ash Wednesday? Should they be forced to turn it inside out to keep from provoking someone (assuming they're permitted to wear those shirts on other days)?

                          Should the schools be allowed to ask students to cover decals on their car windows or bumper stickers on certain days because they are afraid they might incite someone to vandalize the vehicles?

                          I'm just wondering how consistently you want to apply these rules (and apologize if you have already responded to similar questions since I haven't read the entire thread).





                          1. Yes I realize that several of those days take place when schools aren't normally in session but let's ignore that for the sake or argument or assume that we're talking about summer school or something.
                          Far be it for me to defend lao but I don't see him actually endorsing the ban. I think he's saying the school just took one of a set of bad options because they didn't really have a better choice. I think that position is quite sympathetic.
                          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Outis View Post
                            The context here is not simply the apparel, it's also the history of violence. Both must be considered. In the last case, ESPECIALLY if there had been a history of violence, yes, I would certainly support censoring those wearing Japanese flag shirts ... especially if they were wearing the battle flag.

                            Looking only at the context of the garb, and ignoring the violence aspect, results in a very incomplete picture.
                            Shouldn't the schools be focusing on those who commit violent acts rather than rewarding them by censoring things that some of them oppose? Shouldn't they be teaching that people have a right to express ideas that you may not like?

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Shouldn't the schools be focusing on those who commit violent acts rather than rewarding them by censoring others?
                              That would take courage.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                                Far be it for me to defend lao but I don't see him actually endorsing the ban. I think he's saying the school just took one of a set of bad options because they didn't really have a better choice. I think that position is quite sympathetic.
                                Thanks for the clarification. As I said I hadn't read the entire thread. Yes, I'm lazy.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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