The Bernie Gimme Gimme Gimme Crowd

[Cow Poke]

First, it amazes me that Bernie has so many ardent followers, some of whom are actually posting on Tweb.

I wonder, however, how many of Bernie's worshipers have actually looked at how socialism is doing in other countries, even in our own hemisphere.

Venezuela: how the socialist paradise turned into debt and hyperinflation hell

They call them bachaqueros. Venezuela’s army of black market shoppers descend every day at dawn outside Caracas’s biggest stores.

Named after the bachaco leaf-cutting ant that carries several times its weight, the men and women queue alongside hundreds of other Venezuelans for food, nappies, milk and other basic goods.

They stand for hours in the blistering heat, motivated not by hunger, but profit.

Half-empty shelves in most shops means goods bought at government-controlled prices can be sold at a significant mark-up.

[seanD]

US is in fact a socialist economy. At best, it's a mixed economy, though veering more towards socialism than free market capitalism. The right doesn't seem to get this anymore than the left lol.

[Cow Poke]

US is in fact a socialist economy. At best, it's a mixed economy, though veering more towards socialism than free market capitalism. The right doesn't seem to get this anymore than the left lol.

Well, yeah, so let's elect all the "gimme gimme gimme" candidates and make it REAL socialism -- Lord knows the folks who are expected to foot the bill will just say, "oh, ok, sure --- you can have all my money".

[seanD]

Dude, we're already close to 20 trillion in the hole, and that's not considering the unfunded liabilities lol. I seriously doubt Bernie would or could do anymore damage any other candidate could do, either from the left or right. He still has Congress to contend with.

[Cow Poke]

Dude,

Yes, Dudette?

we're already close to 20 trillion in the hole, and that's not considering the unfunded liabilities lol. I seriously doubt Bernie would or could do anymore damage any other candidate could do, either from the left or right.

Wow!

He still has Congress to contend with.

IF Bernie could even hope of winning, that means a whole bunch of house and senate seats change hands, too.

[Starlight]

All the countries doing the best in the world have high tax rates and strongly re-distributive government policies. Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Germany etc. It fascinates me how Americans have their head in the sand with regard to the success of the countries in northern Europe, and how they ignore the success of the "socialist" policies there.

Instead you use a corrupt narco-state as a basis for your comparison... ~rolleyes~

Plus when you talk about the US debt, it's important to keep in mind what created the US debt. The worst culprits, by far, were Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II. So guess what's not creating the debt: Socialist policies. That's why the "socialist" countries in northern Europe are doing perfectly fine, and not in debt. Norway, for example, is one of the richest countries in the world - their government owns 1% of all the world's share-market in their savings fund. The single biggest driver of US debt has been lowering taxes. When the government takes much less money in, the budget ends up not balancing and the country goes into huge debt. The second biggest driver of US debt has been wars. When the government engages in multi-decade trillion dollar wars, the cost of that adds to the debt.

Basically, it boils down to this: Right wingers can't be trusted to balance the budget. They insist on cutting taxes by absurdly large amounts that they can't afford, and engaging in wars that they can't afford. As a result, the US debt has gone up hugely under Reagan and the Bushes. It would be ~70% smaller if those three Republican presidents had never been in office. Don't blame "socialism" for the failures and incompetence of the US right.

US-national-debt-GDP-graph.jpg
From here


When it comes to military spending the US is like a house in a street full of white picket fences that instead has a 10-foot high concrete wall, with barbed wire and security cameras on the top, the tips of guns sticking out, and surveillance drones hovering overhead. Everyone else in the street happily sitting in their front yards thinks of their US neighbour as weird, paranoid, and completely over the top with the wasting of money on their fortress.


Here's my country's national debt by contrast. Bear in mind, we've historically been the most left-wing of all Western countries, being the first Western country to introduce 'free' government-provided healthcare for everyone (75 years ago).

As you can see, our debt dropped steadily from 2000 to 2008 (we had a left-wing government who ran a surplus and paid off debt), and by 2008 our debt was only around 17% of GDP (compare to America's ~105% of GDP). So after 70 years of having government provided universal healthcare we had virtually no government debt. Clearly all that "socialism" wasn't causing us to get into huge debts. At the end of 2008 we had a change of government, and the new right-wing government has proved incompetent at balancing the budget and has run up a large amount of debt in a short time.


In short - don't try and blame "socialism" for the many failings of the right.

[Cow Poke]

All the countries doing the best in the world have high tax rates and strongly re-distributive government policies.

Feel free to move to any of them.

[Starlight]

Feel free to move to any of them.

I already live in one, and am happy here as a result. What I don't think Americans realize is how much people in the rest of the Western world like socialist policies. I was discussing with my friends what I thought it would take for me to want to move to America, and I said that someone offering to pay me $1 million to move to America would be about what it would take. The majority of my friends responded that they would have to be paid a lot more than that to move there.

I saw the result of a survey in the UK a while back (which unfortunately I've since been unable to find the link to despite searching for it), that included a question about how much people liked / disliked having government-provided healthcare. The idea of continuing to have government-run healthcare had a 97% approval rating. That number surprised me: I would have expected it to be higher. Here in NZ, I've not heard a single person in my entire life suggest we should get rid of government-run healthcare. Just to remind you, we also have private hospitals and private health insurance that people can buy if they are rich and want 'better' care (nicer facilities, their own private hospital room, better hospital food, more nurses, lower wait-times to see doctors etc), so people here are perfectly well aware what private healthcare looks like and the richest ~5-10% of the country chooses to use it sometimes (e.g. my mother recently did). The other countries in the world that have government-run healthcare also have private healthcare that rich people can use if they choose to do so.

Here's what the OECD countries spend on healthcare per person per year in US dollars:

This is why we say that Sanders' idea of reforming US healthcare to look like the other countries in the Western world just plain makes financial sense. You should probably stop wasting all that money on your current stupidly inefficient private healthcare system and save yourselves 50% on healthcare costs.

[Cow Poke]

I already live in one, and am happy here as a result.

Then you can stay there, and I can stay in Texas!

[jordanriver]

First, it amazes me that Bernie has so many ardent followers, some of whom are actually posting on Tweb.

I wonder, however, how many of Bernie's worshipers have actually looked at how socialism is doing in other countries, even in our own hemisphere.

Venezuela: how the socialist paradise turned into debt and hyperinflation hell

They call them bachaqueros. Venezuela’s army of black market shoppers descend every day at dawn outside Caracas’s biggest stores.

Named after the bachaco leaf-cutting ant that carries several times its weight, the men and women queue alongside hundreds of other Venezuelans for food, nappies, milk and other basic goods.

They stand for hours in the blistering heat, motivated not by hunger, but profit.

Half-empty shelves in most shops means goods bought at government-controlled prices can be sold at a significant mark-up.

your link says the oil price collapse caused Venezuela's problems. That means THE MARKET killed them.

Oil and GREED FOR MONEY caused Venezuela to cut way back on agriculture production and put all their dependence on oil.

That means they were not self sufficient in food , they had to import their food.

You can't eat oil.

the USA is self sufficient in food, and supplies the rest of the world too.

[Cow Poke]

your link says the oil price collapse caused Venezuela's problems. That means THE MARKET killed them.

Oil and GREED FOR MONEY caused Venezuela to cut way back on agriculture production and put all their dependence on oil.

Who was in charge? Who was greedy? It was the socialists!

That means they were not self sufficient in food , they had to import their food.

Yeah, that tends to happen in socialism.

You can't eat oil.

But Texas A&M is working on microbes that can!

The USA is self sufficient in food, and supplies the rest of the world too.

Yup, because the market allows farmers and companies to innovate. Socialism doesn't promote that.

[seanD]

All the countries doing the best in the world have high tax rates and strongly re-distributive government policies.

That's not a valid argument. There are as many failed socialist countries as successful ones. All countries have a slew of variables that cannot be compared equally -- i.e. history, demographics, culture, location, resources, and on and on.

[jordanriver]

Who was in charge? Who was greedy? It was the socialists!

:

it was unwise socialists. You are attempting broad brush here.

Your attempts to prove socialism always causes unwise policies have been refuted by the overwhelming examples of starlight's posts

[Cow Poke]

it was unwise socialists.

Yeah, not greedy, just "unwise".

The very definition of socialist is "unwise".

[Cow Poke]

That's not a valid argument. There are as many failed socialist countries as successful ones. All countries have a slew of variables that cannot be compared equally -- i.e. history, demographics, culture, location, resources, and on and on.

THAT is a valid argument!