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Immigration problems?

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  • Immigration problems?

    immigrants.jpg

  • #2
    It worked out great for the Natives, their example should be followed.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

    Comment


    • #3
      What happened to the Native Americans was a travesty from beginning to end, with few exceptions.

      That said, two wrongs don't make a right.

      Also, not sure this belongs here. Opening post does not appear to be intended to provoke serious discussion.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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      • #4
        I'm quite sure that their way of life was owed to European explorers anyway. Horses enabled them to develop more, and they warred with each other to the point of extinction at times. Their way of life wasn't all roses and buttercups.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Baldie the Limey View Post
          I'm quite sure that their way of life was owed to European explorers anyway. Horses enabled them to develop more, and they warred with each other to the point of extinction at times. Their way of life wasn't all roses and buttercups.
          Horses were indeed a European import, but their use was quite voluntarily taken up by those tribes which did so (a distinct minority, btw). And yeah, Indian culture has been romanticized quite a bit by those looking back, but just about every culture does that.
          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
          sigpic
          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            What happened to the Native Americans was a travesty from beginning to end, with few exceptions.
            Agreed.

            That said, two wrongs don't make a right.
            I don't accept the suggestion that immigration without assimilation is intrinsically wrong. It can be workable, it can be unworkable, but I reject the suggestion that there's a hard and fast rule either way.

            Also, not sure this belongs here. Opening post does not appear to be intended to provoke serious discussion.
            Ye of little faith....

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Baldie the Limey View Post
              I'm quite sure that their way of life was owed to European explorers anyway. Horses enabled them to develop more, and they warred with each other to the point of extinction at times. Their way of life wasn't all roses and buttercups.
              You may have a distorted understanding of pre-columbian Native culture. You also seem to be over-generalizing. _Some_ Native nations warred to the point of extinction or near extinction. Many did not. It's just like saying "Native Americans were hunter-gatherers"--some were, many were not.

              However, my main point is regarding all the angst in some political quarters about immigrants, and not nearly so much about the First Nations.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Outis View Post
                I don't accept the suggestion that immigration without assimilation is intrinsically wrong. It can be workable, it can be unworkable, but I reject the suggestion that there's a hard and fast rule either way.
                I agree, there's no hard and fast rule either way (though I would nearly categorically reject demands for complete assimilation). It depends on expectations of the immigrant's destination, IMO. The United States has historically expected a fair amount of assimilation. Japan, on the other hand, does not want you, and will not permit you to assimilate.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  I agree, there's no hard and fast rule either way (though I would nearly categorically reject demands for complete assimilation). It depends on expectations of the immigrant's destination, IMO.
                  Like so many issues in American politics, there is a wide variety of points of view on that issue. At the most extreme ends, you have (a) those who believe that immigrants should segregate themselves into enclaves with no thought given to education in American culture, or (b) those who believe that immigrants, if allowed at all, should be required to abandon all connection to their ancestral culture and learn English within five years or be returned to their place of origin.

                  Like so many areas of conflict in American opinion, the best results are half improvise, half compromise, and are generally condemned by many from both extremes.

                  The United States has historically expected a fair amount of assimilation. Japan, on the other hand, does not want you, and will not permit you to assimilate.
                  One cannot justly or even sensibly compare immigration cultures without taking into account the cultures themselves. Japan has a culture that is similar to ours only in very few particulars. A comparison, if possible at all, must take into account the differences as well as the similarities.

                  But yet the argument from some (even from some present here) reminds me of another meme I've seen on the Internet from time to time:

                  citizens.jpg

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Baldie the Limey View Post
                    I'm quite sure that their way of life was owed to European explorers anyway. Horses enabled them to develop more, and they warred with each other to the point of extinction at times. Their way of life wasn't all roses and buttercups.
                    That's a historical misconception typically believed by arrogant westerners ignorant of the history.
                    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Outis View Post
                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]320[/ATTACH]
                      The difference is that the Europeans made no mistake that their intent was conquest. The illegals today have no such ambition. They come to bilk the current system of resources, while the Europeans planned (and succeeded) to replace the existent one. Comparing the two isn't very proper IMHO...
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      Stephen R. Donaldson

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        The difference is that the Europeans made no mistake that their intent was conquest. The illegals today have no such ambition. They come to bilk the current system of resources, while the Europeans planned (and succeeded) to replace the existent one. Comparing the two isn't very proper IMHO...
                        That's not true. There are radical Mexican groups that do express such conquest.
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          They come to bilk the current system of resources, while the Europeans planned (and succeeded) to replace the existent one. Comparing the two isn't very proper IMHO...
                          Why not? Theft is theft. (And broad-brush generalization is broad-brush generalization.)

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                          • #14
                            "If you want to speak English, go back to England."

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seanD View Post
                              That's not true. There are radical Mexican groups that do express such conquest.
                              A very small minority of them. The Europeans' goal was pretty unanimous.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment

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