Originally posted by Paprika
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What should a married Christian do when not ready to have children?
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostI didn't flesh my own ideas out, either. I hope to do so in more detail sometime in the next few days, but for now, I'll just say that I think that the marital act-- in which the married couple, through an act of love, can create a new life-- is where the sacramentality of matrimony is most clearly displayed. It's not that the loving relationship is live-giving for the spouses, but that it can be wondrously and miraculously life-creating. It is because the married couple, through the act of sexual union, can participate in God's creation in a special way that married love has a special place and theological significance.
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Originally posted by Alsharad View PostMarriage is for those that are in it. I am in a marriage, ergo the marriage is for me (and my wife, of course, but she isn't here posting this).
Originally posted by JedidiahWell it is consistent with the Bible. Why do you put that down?
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostNo one here has denied that marriage is for the spouses. But marriage finds its fullest expression in the family, and its primary end is to the good of the child.
So, hypothetically, Couple A marries and has children, but one spouse dies after only 15 years; Couple B marries and has no children but remain happily married for over 50 years. All other things being equal, which couple had the "fuller" (your word) marriage in your opinion?
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Originally posted by Alsharad View PostIt is an interesting though. Given that it is not fully formulated, let me just throw this out there. You have painted a beautiful picture of a married couple conceiving in a loving and committed relationship. At the same time, the animal kingdom is rife with amoral promiscuity. Is that also sacred because the animals "through the act of sexual union, can participate in God's creation in a special way"? Reproduction is common to the entire animal kingdom. It is our posit that it is our relationships that make us unique, not our biological functions. You will need to establish why human conception is holy and sacred while other animal matings are not.Don't call it a comeback. It's a riposte.
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Originally posted by Alsharad View PostI don't think that you have Biblical warrant for that position. And from where do you draw the backing for the idea that marriage finds its fullest expression in the family?
Other than this, I don't intend to attempt to persuade someone who is so mired in the Romantic thinking of the past several centuries.
So, hypothetically, Couple A marries and has children, but one spouse dies after only 15 years; Couple B marries and has no children but remain happily married for over 50 years. All other things being equal, which couple had the "fuller" (your word) marriage in your opinion?
Some observations: here is made clear the utterly warped nature of the Modern individualistic view: no longer is having children considered the normal mode of life, with the transmission of the line considered important; the creative act and sacrifice for the future paramount to the continued health of society, is now greatly diminished. Now with contraception romance is unfettered; it is now standard for the love between husband and wife to be turned inwards and not outwards toward children. And as be expected, the cumulative individual selfishnesses result in great cost to society; the West is dying.
There is also a direct line to be drawn from devaluation of the centrality of reproduction in marriage and the idolisation of romance to rampant divorce and homosexual marriage: if marriage is mainly for the two people involved there is no reason why they shouldn't break it if they both consent; if marriage is primarily romantic in nature there is no reason why it should be between one man and one woman.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostIt is rather obvious from the fact that Scripturally marriage is bound up in 'one flesh', and the main telos of sexual conjugation is reproduction.
Other than this, I don't intend to attempt to persuade someone who is so mired in the Romantic thinking of the past several centuries.
The one who has children, naturally.
Some observations: here is made clear the utterly warped nature of the Modern individualistic view: no longer is having children considered the normal mode of life, with the transmission of the line considered important; the creative act and sacrifice for the future paramount to the continued health of society, is now greatly diminished. Now with contraception romance is unfettered; it is now standard for the love between husband and wife to be turned inwards and not outwards toward children. And as be expected, the cumulative individual selfishnesses result in great cost to society; the West is dying.
There is also a direct line to be drawn from devaluation of the centrality of reproduction in marriage and the idolisation of romance to rampant divorce and homosexual marriage: if marriage is mainly for the two people involved there is no reason why they shouldn't break it if they both consent; if marriage is primarily romantic in nature there is no reason why it should be between one man and one woman.
You also haven't taken into account God's position on adultery. Is there is ever mention of children any time that adultery is discussed or condemned? God curses Isreal as an adulterous nation and required that it be punished by death in the OT. The punishment is the same whether there were children or not. If what you are postulating is true, then the punishment would be unjust since the one who committed adultery with no children committed a lesser sin (if your position is correct, anyway). If God hates adultery regardless of whether there are children in the marriage, how do you account for this?
Your position doesn't seem to have strong scriptural or logical support. If I have misunderstood your position, please forgive me and correct my understanding.
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Originally posted by Alsharad View PostThe main purpose of sexualintimacyintercourse is reproduction? That's just bald assertion
I don't think you understand my position. Romanticism has nothing to do with it.
Not "naturally".
None of that quote is a biblical foundation for the idea that the primary purpose of marriage is to have children. It is a lot of assertions (some of which I agree with, BTW). It is, however, largely irrelevant to this discussion. You are putting the cart before the horse, at this point, and even seem to be arguing against a position that I have not asserted nor have I espoused it.
Your logic is not sound. It does not follow that simply because marriage is for the two people involved that they are permitted to disassociate out of convenience. The reason they cannot break it (even if they both consent) is because they took a sacred vow that they wouldn't.
You also haven't taken into account God's position on adultery. Is there is ever mention of children any time that adultery is discussed or condemned?
Your position doesn't seem to have strong scriptural or logical support. If I have misunderstood your position, please forgive me and correct my understanding.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostIt must be great having a habit of ignoring uncomfortable views.A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
George Bernard Shaw
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostFixed. And I've talked about the propagation of the species earlier, so you've no excuse.
1. Sex relieves stress
2. Sex boosts immunity
3. Sex burns calories
4. Sex improves cardiovascular health
5. Sex boosts self-esteem
6. Sex improves intimacy
7. Sex reduces pain
8. Sex reduces prostate cancer risk
9. Sex strengthens pelvic floor muscles
10. Sex helps you sleep better
11. Acts as a natural antidepressant
Please explain how you derive that the main purpose of sexual intercourse is to produce offspring. It is still a bald assertion. It is clear that it serves many purposes. What makes offspring the primary purpose? What about it elevates it above improved intimacy and better health? Where is any of your position found in Scripture? I cannot find it.
But it does. Romantic thinking underlies most moderns' views of marriage. The idea that marriage is primarily for those getting married arose out of romantic thinking, ie widespread marrying for romantic love.
Yes indeed.
These are merely UNSUPPORTED observations, for those who have ears to hear.
That's quite stupid, since marriage has become for many a conditional vow, in which both can back out if they both want to, and hardly sacred in many instances.
How on earth is this relevant?
You counter is basically "No, nope, no, I disagree, herp derp". And I don't care to convince you, only demolish and destroy your position in the sight of those who have eyes to see.
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Originally posted by Alsharad View PostPlease explain how you derive that the main purpose of sexual intercourse is to produce offspring. It is still a bald assertion. It is clear that it serves many purposes. What makes offspring the primary purpose? What about it elevates it above improved intimacy and better health?
Where is any of your position found in Scripture? I cannot find it.
You seem to assume that I think that it is about marrying for love.
You're bound by your position to assert that a 15 year marriage has more depth and meaning than one of 50 years simply because children were present. The absurdity of your position is lost on you. My position asserts that, really, only God knows which marriage was deeper. Your legalism is showing. ;)
Fixed it for you.
I thought that we were in Biblical Ethics? We must keep the context of Scripture in mind, right? So regardless of what the world has done to marriage, Biblically, it is a sacred vow.
Children do not even enter into the equation (or the contract).
Because God doesn't punish people for not having children... If people were violating the primary purpose for marriage by not having children, wouldn't that demand a greater punishment?
Not quite. My counter is "where is that in Scripture?" You haven't answered that one yet. Your other positions are raw assertions that you don't back up. You logic is flimsy. I have admitted that I might be misunderstanding your position, but even then, you refuse to correct me. Hardly what I would call being "demolished and destroyed".
There is no point in aiming to correct you, only blowing up your idiotic objections.
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Originally posted by Catholicity View PostOr maybe I just have a life outside of tweb that involves motherhood being a wife and I don't debate on demand because I just don't have time. Like for example both children have the flu and I am getting it. Caring about a debate other than stating my personal position is not on my list at all. I believe I mentioned at one point that I am not into apologetics much either at the moment. Maybe some day when the kids are older and I have completed my foot surgery series. Also considering I am quite comfortable with my beliefs on marriage birth control and children I just don't find the need to make a huge deal of them. They quite well mirror the catechism and theology of the body.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostSee above, re: propagation of offspring.
I'm not sure why we need Scripture to determine the main purposes of biological processes.
Most Western people do, so yes, I did assume that.
Only some moron would claim that abiding by the premises one puts forth is being 'legalistic'. The 'fuller' marriage is one which has had children - which many people would agree given the obvious emphasis of heirs across times and cultures.
It's a growing trend amongst Western Christians to marry divorcees even when their spouses are still alive - which is adultery. We should focus on Scripture, yes, but also note what else is going on in the world to trace cause and effect.
Because children are only supposed to be produced afterwards.
Yes, but note that such a punishment virtually wasn't needed because people desired children. Refer to all the grief when women were barren (Hannah, Elizabeth, Rachel) and the joy when they finally became pregnant; on the other hand adultery was (as it is always) a widespread temptation.
There is no point in aiming to correct you, only blowing up your idiotic objections.
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Originally posted by Alsharad View PostSo a non-answer or a circular one at best. Gotcha.
We both agree that we live in a universe populated by more than just the biological. Sexual intimacy is not just physical. It is mental and spiritual. You are assuming that the biology takes primacy in determining the purpose of sexual intercourse.
Scripture in general, and Jesus in particular worried less about the physical and more about the heart.
This should be great. Evidence, please?
You were wrong, then, weren't you. ;)
Following the premise isn't legalistic. Your position is incapable of handling the realities of marriages or the human experience. You MUST declare that a marriage with children is fuller than one without. Other things must be secondary. That a father might be a lecherous, adulterous, abusive man to his spouse is irrelevant. That a husband might love and care for his crippled wife for 30 years is irrelevant. That a wife might sacrifice everything to follow her husband's dream is irrelevant. No matter what the relationship is like between the spouses (good or bad), your position demands that a relationship that produces children is "fuller". THAT is legalistic.
Except that when we start discussing the primary purpose of marriage, we can completely reasonably disregard what the world has done with it.
If I make a vow or enter a contract, I make sure that the purpose of it is clear IN THE CONTRACT. This has been done for centuries and not just in the west. Where are children mentioned in most marriage ceremonies?
People not being self-reflective about what marriage is meant for when they do it, or trying to make it all about themselves does not change its main purpose. As you said, "we can completely reasonably disregard what the world has done with it", so we will disregard what 'most marriage ceremonies' do with respect to this point.
That reflects a cultural norm and cannot be held as a standard for all marriages everywhere without further support.
Not having children can be (and in those times was almost always) due to infertility which is outside the responsibility of the couple involved. Which is why voluntary adultery is punished and involuntary infertility is not, dumbass.
Arguments shouldn't be about correction, they should be about finding the truth. That is what I am trying to do. It is hard, however, when you just restate when asked for evidence and your logical reasoning is weak... at best.
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