No Longer Convinced

[KingsGambit]

Obviously viewing it as a mandate (the view the OP is critiquing) would be a misapplication of the wisdom literature.

[Darth Xena]

Not an answer but merely an ad hominem.

First time I have been accused of being a literalist. That's rich.

I think your highly emotive response speaks for itself.

[Catholicity]

Wow!!! Ya point out what you think, go back and redo it, make the case you have, and get accused of a strawman, and logical fallacy by someone who is a biblical literalist and has ONE way of reading scripture. that's great, and classic. Especially of narrow minded thinkers.

[Darth Xena]

No I didn't fail to deal with them, at least I thought I didn't. The first one Prov. 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
I agree, don't withhold discipline. Punish I.E. Correct with a Shebet or Guiding staff, it does not say hit beat spank hurt, or whip. How do you punish with a Guide Staff as a Shepherd over a flock of sheep? You would Thrust it in the middle of a pasture, in the ground, and toward the head of the sheep not striking them but moving them to turn around.
Second Verse: Proverbs 29:15
A rod and a reprimand impart wisdom, but a child left undisciplined disgraces its mother.
I would still and argue for the Shepherding discipline and correction. I would also again point out that its not a demand for physical discipline. Do children need correction for wrongdoing? Yup! Do they need their "hides tanned" for having an opinion or expressing frustration, NO!

Umm yes you did. In fact what you are doing is a classical exegetic al fallacy called unwarranted expansions of semantic domain.

Once again

Well, the question then becomes, is it the same type of rod referred to in these verses.

Proverbs 10:13
Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of one who has no sense.

Proverbs 26:3
A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!

Also in Proverbs. Also dealing with discipline. Also mentioning a rod. Obviously corporal punishment.

You have to point to something other than your presuppositions to show a different rod in meant in the verse under question. And there are numerous other references throughout the OT for a rod in discipline and it is always corporal.

Do they need their "hides tanned" for having an opinion or expressing frustration, NO!

Care for a little fire straw man? No one here even remotely suggested such a thing.

[Catholicity]

No I didn't fail to deal with them, at least I thought I didn't. The first one Prov. 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
I agree, don't withhold discipline. Punish I.E. Correct with a Shebet or Guiding staff, it does not say hit beat spank hurt, or whip. How do you punish with a Guide Staff as a Shepherd over a flock of sheep? You would Thrust it in the middle of a pasture, in the ground, and toward the head of the sheep not striking them but moving them to turn around.
Second Verse: Proverbs 29:15
A rod and a reprimand impart wisdom, but a child left undisciplined disgraces its mother.
I would still and argue for the Shepherding discipline and correction. I would also again point out that its not a demand for physical discipline. Do children need correction for wrongdoing? Yup! Do they need their "hides tanned" for having an opinion or expressing frustration, NO!

[robrecht]

If it is a Biblically praised way of discipline (and it is), I would have an issue with her not disciplining a child who deserved it (though I would suspect it was the father not the mother who doled out discipline to sons)

Oh sure, I am not really disputing that, but we, especially Catholics, have a very artificial view of Mary.

[Darth Xena]

Oh, I know, but it's still hard for Catholics to imagine the Blessed Virgin Mary hitting a child.

If it is a Biblically praised way of discipline (and it is), I would have an issue with her not disciplining a child who deserved it (though I would suspect it was the father not the mother who doled out discipline to sons)

[Darth Xena]

You failed to deal with the verses posted by Cerebrum. It sounds like you simply want this to be the conclusion. And since it is in Proverbs, making it a requirement is foolhardy, but acting like it isn't an axiom mentioned as helpful in Proverbs is equally so.

[Catholicity]

Once again I can make the case "If you punish him with the rod"

The rod is well known as a tool of correction for sheep. So if a child walks away, Guide them back.
Now, are there cases where a quick swat may be needed? Child dependent/danger/etc.... you can certainly make that case reasonably. But in many cases, is physical discipline even necessary. Also In the Hebrew, I believe the word for "strike" may often simply mean to cause mental anguish. Often times I believe a well thought out punishment can cause more anguish and correction than any physical implementation. Spanking it seems while it can potentially be a tool, is far from a requirement.

[robrecht]

Didn't notice that, but it wouldn't surprise me if he got spanked. He likely was fiercely jealous of Jesus.

Oh, I know, but it's still hard for Catholics to imagine the Blessed Virgin Mary hitting a child.

[Darth Xena]

Didn't notice that, but it wouldn't surprise me if he got spanked. He likely was fiercely jealous of Jesus.

[robrecht]

And Jesus being sinless would have had no need to anything escalating to corporal punishment.

That's why I included James too.

[Darth Xena]

Of course; it was not meant to say anything else. I think Mary and Joseph were probably very good parents. We know much less about Paul's parents, but he did seem to have a bit of a violent streak as a young man, persecuting those with whom he did not agree. Do you disagree?

And Jesus being sinless would have had no need to anything escalating to corporal punishment.

As far as Saul, I think it was probably pretty common then to get a spanking every once in a while, and brainy kids tend to get mouthy, so yes, I bet Saul got his backside tanned a few times.

[Darth Xena]

Cerebrum you have it SPOT ON. The proverbs verses are quite obviously referring to the same kind of rod, the same one in the first verse quoted by Catholicity-- it is referring not to guidance but corporal punishment (which is not just for children but was a penal punishment for adults as well).

[robrecht]

That tells us nothing except your own biases.

Of course; it was not meant to say anything else. I think Mary and Joseph were probably very good parents. We know much less about Paul's parents, but he did seem to have a bit of a violent streak as a young man, persecuting those with whom he did not agree. Do you disagree?