No Longer Convinced

[Darth Xena]

Nor have I tried to formulate an argument, just making friendly conversation. I'm old enough that very little surprises me anymore.

Okay. I still get surprised sometimes, there are whacky shows on cable.

[robrecht]

I would also not be surprised if he were simply naturally aggressive or that the sin rises tomorrow. You really haven't stated an argument pertinent to whether corporal punishment is a biblically good discipline method.

Nor have I tried to formulate an argument, just making friendly conversation. I'm old enough that very little surprises me anymore.

[Darth Xena]

Wow you took me way out of context didn't you....

Not in this thread he didn't. I pointed out the same things and got called a literalist (still chuckling) for my trouble.

You assumed by casting about the semantic domain that the verse didn't teach something... Something obviously driven by your personal bias against it as evidenced by your later out of proportion inflammatory comments about what things are punishable and then pointed to other verses where guidance is meant--- as if the two are mutually exclusive!!!!- and then pointed back to your assumption as proof. Ta da!

[Darth Xena]

But, as you yourself pointed out, Saul's violence was probably not culturally out of proportion. Everyone is different and there are so many variables that I would not attempt to set out any hard and fast rules. But if it is true that Saul of Tarsus was an argumentative, violent persecutor of meek Christians, I would not be surprised if he was perpetuating a circle of violence. Yet, another victim of physical abuse might conceivably be beaten into submission and passivity and react very differently.

If a certain amount of corporal punishment is good, when administered with love and respect, and less is potentially bad for the child, this does not mean that more is necessarily better. We know nothing at all of Paul's parents, but I would not be surprised if his parents were not immaculately conceived and free of original sin.

I would also not be surprised if he were simply naturally aggressive or that the sin rises tomorrow. You really haven't stated an argument pertinent to whether corporal punishment is a biblically good discipline method.

[RBerman]

Wow you took me way out of context didn't you....

It is just that Proverbs has a lot more to say about "the rod" than the one verse you cited. Looking at the teaching of Proverbs as a whole on the topic of discipline, it seems difficult to deny that corporal punishment was envisioned.

[Catholicity]

Catholicity's method:
1) Assume without warrant that shebet is referring to a shepherd's rod
2) As a result of 1), apply the context of sheeprearing to the respective proverbs
3) She gets her desired eisegesis!

Everyone else:

Wow you took me way out of context didn't you....

[robrecht]

Of course. But your implication was that childhood corporal punishment led to an adult violent streak. Yet all these adults were in the same culture yet all were not particularly violent.

But, as you yourself pointed out, Saul's violence was probably not culturally out of proportion. Everyone is different and there are so many variables that I would not attempt to set out any hard and fast rules. But if it is true that Saul of Tarsus was an argumentative, violent persecutor of meek Christians, I would not be surprised if he was perpetuating a circle of violence. Yet, another victim of physical abuse might conceivably be beaten into submission and passivity and react very differently.

If a certain amount of corporal punishment is good, when administered with love and respect, and less is potentially bad for the child, this does not mean that more is necessarily better. We know nothing at all of Paul's parents, but I would not be surprised if his parents were not immaculately conceived and free of original sin.

[Darth Xena]

Of course, it was not, but that is really the point, isn't it? Don't you think advice on child rearing, even when it appears in the Bible, can also be conditioned by cultural factors?

Of course. But your implication was that childhood corporal punishment led to an adult violent streak. Yet all these adults were in the same culture yet all were not particularly violent.

[Paprika]

Catholicity's method:
1) Assume without warrant that shebet is referring to a shepherd's rod
2) As a result of 1), apply the context of sheeprearing to the respective proverbs
3) She gets her desired eisegesis!

Everyone else:

[robrecht]

Yes, but not so sure it was culturally out of proportion.

Of course, it was not, but that is really the point, isn't it? Don't you think advice on child rearing, even when it appears in the Bible, can also be conditioned by cultural factors?

[RBerman]

You are taking my post much more seriously than I intended,

OK.

but don't you think Saul evidenced some degree of violent behavior in his persecution of the earliest Christians?

Yes, but not so sure it was culturally out of proportion.

Exactly.

[Darth Xena]

You are taking my post much more seriously than I intended, but don't you think Saul evidenced some degree of violent behavior in his persecution of the earliest Christians?

Yes, but not so sure it was culturally out of proportion.

[robrecht]

I am sure Mary and Joseph were good parents. But to go from that to concluding that they did not use corporal punishment, you'd have to have already decided that corporal punishment is not typical of "good parents." Similarly, you appear to be linking Saul's putative "violent streak" with an assumption that he received corporal punishment.

You are taking my post much more seriously than I intended, but don't you think Saul evidenced some degree of violent behavior in his persecution of the earliest Christians?

[RBerman]

Of course; it was not meant to say anything else. I think Mary and Joseph were probably very good parents. We know much less about Paul's parents, but he did seem to have a bit of a violent streak as a young man, persecuting those with whom he did not agree. Do you disagree?

I am sure Mary and Joseph were good parents. But to go from that to concluding that they did not use corporal punishment, you'd have to have already decided that corporal punishment is not typical of "good parents." Similarly, you appear to be linking Saul's putative "violent streak" with an assumption that he received corporal punishment.

[Darth Xena]

Obviously viewing it as a mandate (the view the OP is critiquing) would be a misapplication of the wisdom literature.

And I said, before the ad hominem:

And since it is in Proverbs, making it a requirement is foolhardy, but acting like it isn't an axiom mentioned as helpful in Proverbs is equally so.

Yep, I sound JUST like a Biblical literalist.

Wait, no I don't. Not. At. All.

And the OP wasn't simply arguing against it being a mandate (I doubt many here would disagree with that) but argued that the verse isn't speaking about corporal punishment at all, thus committing the same problem in reverse and the OPer went on to insinuate that those who disagree think the crap should be beat out of kids (slight exaggeration, having their hides tanned is specifically what was said) for merely having a strong opinion or expressing frustration.