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No Longer Convinced

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  • RBerman
    replied
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    I have difficulty imagining Mary and Joseph beating Jesus or even James, but it would not surprise me all that much if Saul of Tarsus was beaten as a child.
    That tells us nothing except your own biases.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
    I would imagine for couple of reasons, there is a difference in context. First Proverbs is a collection of sayings, which are applicable to individual situations. Secondly Hebraic words hold multiple contexts. But you can also simply say here "Correction" for rod, and it still applies equally. If a person has no sense, you correct their lack of sense. If a person is a fool, you use "Correction" on them too. It doesn't say how. Certainly if you cross reference other places in scripture on children, you shouldn't exasperate them or treat them as a you would a person who is truly a "fool" in the 1st place. I'm convinced certainly that Scripture does not require spanking as a form of shepherding.

    Um, the context of the verses I posted make it pretty clear that physical punishment is in view here. A "rod across the back" is indicative of a beating, which was common practice at the time for "correction". It also compares it to the whip being used on a horse, not really any wiggle room that I can see for what you are saying.

    Yes, context is important, but I'm not sure it really helps your case in this situation. If it is indeed the same kind of rod, then it looks like the case for physical punishment is not hard to make at all.

    Proverbs 23:13
    [ Saying 13 ] Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.

    Proverbs 29:15
    A rod and a reprimand impart wisdom, but a child left undisciplined disgraces its mother.

    The rod is apparently separate from a reprimand, so it seems to me that physical discipline is even more likely to be what is in view here.

    As for not "exasperating" a child, I would think that it's a bit different than a simple spanking. Oh, and I never said anything about requiring spanking. Certain people respond to different punishments in different ways. I know that physical pain never really did anything for me(back before the RSD of course). but I think that others are more likely to respond in a way that is more positive(well, as far as punishments go anyway).

    ETA: This source also describes these verses as corporal punishment, but also notes that misuse of something doesn't invalidate proper use of something. This is a lesson I see too many people not willing to understand. http://www.tektonics.org/af/corppun.php
    Oh, and I know that there are a few people here who don't like JPH's style, but this article doesn't have any "riposte" that I can see.
    Last edited by Cerebrum123; 05-04-2014, 05:16 PM.

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  • Catholicity
    replied
    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Well, the question then becomes, is it the same type of rod referred to in these verses.

    Proverbs 10:13
    Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of one who has no sense.

    Proverbs 26:3
    A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!
    I would imagine for couple of reasons, there is a difference in context. First Proverbs is a collection of sayings, which are applicable to individual situations. Secondly Hebraic words hold multiple contexts. But you can also simply say here "Correction" for rod, and it still applies equally. If a person has no sense, you correct their lack of sense. If a person is a fool, you use "Correction" on them too. It doesn't say how. Certainly if you cross reference other places in scripture on children, you shouldn't exasperate them or treat them as a you would a person who is truly a "fool" in the 1st place. I'm convinced certainly that Scripture does not require spanking as a form of shepherding.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Well, the question then becomes, is it the same type of rod referred to in these verses.

    Proverbs 10:13
    Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of one who has no sense.

    Proverbs 26:3
    A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!

    Leave a comment:


  • robrecht
    replied
    I have difficulty imagining Mary and Joseph beating Jesus or even James, but it would not surprise me all that much if Saul of Tarsus was beaten as a child.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Any sort of discipline can become abuse when taken to extremes. I would argue that my stepmother's psychological manipulation did my sister far more harm than spankings administered by my father.

    Leave a comment:


  • Catholicity
    started a topic No Longer Convinced

    No Longer Convinced

    For years and years, I was brought up to believe that "spare the rod and spoil the child" was some kind of a biblical mandate.

    Well its not. Its not a verse its not in the Bible. It says this:
    Proverbs 13:24 “He who spares the rod hates his son. But he who loves him is careful to discipline him.”
    .
    I looked up the word for rod, Its shebet, which is more like a walking stick that shepherds use to guide their sheep not hit them.

    the more I read verses come up like these:

    Proverbs 22:15 “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it from him.”

    Psalm 94:12 “Blessed is the man you discipline, O Lord, the man you teach from your law;”

    Proverbs 1:7 “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.”

    Proverbs 6:23 “For these commands are a lamp, this teaching is a light, and the corrections of discipline are the way to life.”

    Proverbs 13:1 “A wise son heeds his father’s instruction, but a mocker does not listen to rebuke.”

    Proverbs 15:5 “A fool spurns his father’s discipline, but whoever heeds correction shows prudence.”

    Hebrews 12:9 “Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!”

    Hebrews 12:11 “No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.”

    Ephesians 6:4 “Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.”

    What it really says is guide our children, not beat them. Obviously something has sparked this. I was thinking about the horrors I have heard and read from the book "To train up a child." And its not an isolated incident. All over the U.S. People are speaking up regarding abuses within the Church body, and it seems to come from areas that misinterpret and twist scripture from either ignorance or personal gain. So I wanted to investigate what these scriptures really said. Guide. Lovingly. Shepherd our children.
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