Announcement

Collapse

Biblical Ethics 301 Guidelines

This forum is for Christians to discuss ethical issues within Christianity. Non-theists, non-christians, and unorthodox Christians should not post here without first getting permission from the area's moderators.

If you have a question about what's OK and what's not OK, please contact the moderators.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

No Longer Convinced

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
    Oh, I know, but it's still hard for Catholics to imagine the Blessed Virgin Mary hitting a child.
    If it is a Biblically praised way of discipline (and it is), I would have an issue with her not disciplining a child who deserved it (though I would suspect it was the father not the mother who doled out discipline to sons)
    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

    sigpic

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
      If it is a Biblically praised way of discipline (and it is), I would have an issue with her not disciplining a child who deserved it (though I would suspect it was the father not the mother who doled out discipline to sons)
      Oh sure, I am not really disputing that, but we, especially Catholics, have a very artificial view of Mary.
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • #18
        No I didn't fail to deal with them, at least I thought I didn't. The first one Prov. 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child;
        if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
        I agree, don't withhold discipline. Punish I.E. Correct with a Shebet or Guiding staff, it does not say hit beat spank hurt, or whip. How do you punish with a Guide Staff as a Shepherd over a flock of sheep? You would Thrust it in the middle of a pasture, in the ground, and toward the head of the sheep not striking them but moving them to turn around.
        Second Verse: Proverbs 29:15
        A rod and a reprimand impart wisdom, but a child left undisciplined disgraces its mother.
        I would still and argue for the Shepherding discipline and correction. I would also again point out that its not a demand for physical discipline. Do children need correction for wrongdoing? Yup! Do they need their "hides tanned" for having an opinion or expressing frustration, NO!
        A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
        George Bernard Shaw

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Catholicity View Post
          No I didn't fail to deal with them, at least I thought I didn't. The first one Prov. 23:13 Do not withhold discipline from a child;
          if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
          I agree, don't withhold discipline. Punish I.E. Correct with a Shebet or Guiding staff, it does not say hit beat spank hurt, or whip. How do you punish with a Guide Staff as a Shepherd over a flock of sheep? You would Thrust it in the middle of a pasture, in the ground, and toward the head of the sheep not striking them but moving them to turn around.
          Second Verse: Proverbs 29:15
          A rod and a reprimand impart wisdom, but a child left undisciplined disgraces its mother.
          I would still and argue for the Shepherding discipline and correction. I would also again point out that its not a demand for physical discipline. Do children need correction for wrongdoing? Yup! Do they need their "hides tanned" for having an opinion or expressing frustration, NO!
          Umm yes you did. In fact what you are doing is a classical exegetic al fallacy called unwarranted expansions of semantic domain.

          Once again

          Well, the question then becomes, is it the same type of rod referred to in these verses.

          Proverbs 10:13
          Wisdom is found on the lips of the discerning, but a rod is for the back of one who has no sense.

          Proverbs 26:3
          A whip for the horse, a bridle for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!
          Also in Proverbs. Also dealing with discipline. Also mentioning a rod. Obviously corporal punishment.

          You have to point to something other than your presuppositions to show a different rod in meant in the verse under question. And there are numerous other references throughout the OT for a rod in discipline and it is always corporal.

          Do they need their "hides tanned" for having an opinion or expressing frustration, NO!
          Care for a little fire straw man? No one here even remotely suggested such a thing.
          The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

          sigpic

          Comment


          • #20
            Wow!!! Ya point out what you think, go back and redo it, make the case you have, and get accused of a strawman, and logical fallacy by someone who is a biblical literalist and has ONE way of reading scripture. that's great, and classic. Especially of narrow minded thinkers.
            A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
            George Bernard Shaw

            Comment


            • #21
              Not an answer but merely an ad hominem.

              First time I have been accused of being a literalist. That's rich.

              I think your highly emotive response speaks for itself.
              The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

              sigpic

              Comment


              • #22
                Obviously viewing it as a mandate (the view the OP is critiquing) would be a misapplication of the wisdom literature.
                "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  Obviously viewing it as a mandate (the view the OP is critiquing) would be a misapplication of the wisdom literature.
                  And I said, before the ad hominem:

                  And since it is in Proverbs, making it a requirement is foolhardy, but acting like it isn't an axiom mentioned as helpful in Proverbs is equally so.
                  Yep, I sound JUST like a Biblical literalist.

                  Wait, no I don't. Not. At. All.

                  And the OP wasn't simply arguing against it being a mandate (I doubt many here would disagree with that) but argued that the verse isn't speaking about corporal punishment at all, thus committing the same problem in reverse and the OPer went on to insinuate that those who disagree think the crap should be beat out of kids (slight exaggeration, having their hides tanned is specifically what was said) for merely having a strong opinion or expressing frustration.
                  Last edited by Darth Xena; 05-04-2014, 09:03 PM.
                  The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

                  sigpic

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    Of course; it was not meant to say anything else. I think Mary and Joseph were probably very good parents. We know much less about Paul's parents, but he did seem to have a bit of a violent streak as a young man, persecuting those with whom he did not agree. Do you disagree?
                    I am sure Mary and Joseph were good parents. But to go from that to concluding that they did not use corporal punishment, you'd have to have already decided that corporal punishment is not typical of "good parents." Similarly, you appear to be linking Saul's putative "violent streak" with an assumption that he received corporal punishment.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                      I am sure Mary and Joseph were good parents. But to go from that to concluding that they did not use corporal punishment, you'd have to have already decided that corporal punishment is not typical of "good parents." Similarly, you appear to be linking Saul's putative "violent streak" with an assumption that he received corporal punishment.
                      You are taking my post much more seriously than I intended, but don't you think Saul evidenced some degree of violent behavior in his persecution of the earliest Christians?
                      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
                      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                        You are taking my post much more seriously than I intended, but don't you think Saul evidenced some degree of violent behavior in his persecution of the earliest Christians?
                        Yes, but not so sure it was culturally out of proportion.
                        The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

                        sigpic

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          You are taking my post much more seriously than I intended,
                          OK.

                          but don't you think Saul evidenced some degree of violent behavior in his persecution of the earliest Christians?
                          Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                          Yes, but not so sure it was culturally out of proportion.
                          Exactly.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                            Yes, but not so sure it was culturally out of proportion.
                            Of course, it was not, but that is really the point, isn't it? Don't you think advice on child rearing, even when it appears in the Bible, can also be conditioned by cultural factors?
                            βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
                            ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                            אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Catholicity's method:
                              1) Assume without warrant that shebet is referring to a shepherd's rod
                              2) As a result of 1), apply the context of sheeprearing to the respective proverbs
                              3) She gets her desired eisegesis!

                              Everyone else:

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                                Of course, it was not, but that is really the point, isn't it? Don't you think advice on child rearing, even when it appears in the Bible, can also be conditioned by cultural factors?
                                Of course. But your implication was that childhood corporal punishment led to an adult violent streak. Yet all these adults were in the same culture yet all were not particularly violent.
                                The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

                                sigpic

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by KingsGambit, 02-10-2022, 11:02 PM
                                58 responses
                                494 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post NorrinRadd  
                                Working...
                                X