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Oxygen detected by Rosetta mission on comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

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  • Oxygen detected by Rosetta mission on comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

    Back in March of 2004 the European Space Agency launched the Rosetta space probe to intercept and study the comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko which it did 10½ years later. The international team of researchers have now announced what they say is the most surprising discovery of the project -- the presence of oxygen in the atmosphere of the comet, a finding that they said could change our understanding of how the solar system formed.

    In fact they said the DFMS mass spectrometer aboard the Rosetta spacecraft detected “a lot” of molecular oxygen in the cloud of gas, or coma, surrounding the nucleus of comet and that it is the fourth most abundant compound in the gaseous coma of 67P after water, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide.

    "It is the most surprising discovery we have made so far in 67P because oxygen was not among the molecules suspected in a cometary comas,” declared Kathrin Altwegg, of Switzerland's University of Bern and project leader for the Rosetta Orbiter Spectrometer for Ion and Neutral Analysis (ROSINA) who was a a co-author of the paper describing the discovery. “The first time we saw it I think we all went a little bit into denial because it was not expected to be found in a comet."

    Altwegg noted that, “Molecular oxygen is very reactive. There was a lot of hydrogen around when the solar system was formed. Everybody and all models showed that molecular oxygen would react with the hydrogen and would no longer be present as molecular oxygen.” IOW, since oxygen easily bonds with other kinds of atoms and it was thought that all the oxygen that was around at the dawn of the solar system would have long ago combined with the abundant hydrogen present at the time to form H20 -- water.

    "All the models say it shouldn't be there and it shouldn't survive for such a long time," agreed Andre Bieler, a physicist at the University of Michigan who studies cometary science and is the lead author of the paper which puts it this way: "Current Solar System formation models do not predict conditions that would allow this to occur."

    Bieler added that they detected oxygen almost immediately but to make sure that they weren't mistaken or the equipment wasn't defective they continued studying the comet for several months before reaching their conclusion.

    Bieler said that the team checked oxygen levels at different distances from the comet and found that the closer to the comet the spacecraft flew, the more oxygen it detected meaning that it was present "in the whole body" of the comet which led us to the idea that it was primordial so the O2 must have been present at the formation of the comet."

    The researchers think that the oxygen was likely built onto the icy grains of the comet. "We came up with the idea that it could happen through radiolysis, a common effect that is known in the solar system on other icy bodies and in the rings of Saturn," explained Bieler. Radiolysis occurs when energetic particles emitted by the sun break up the bonds of water ice. Experiments have demonstrated that hydrogen can diffuse out of this process, leaving the oxygen with no other molecules with which to react.

    The findings lead to two obvious questions. What conditions were necessary for molecular oxygen to get trapped in the icy crystals of a comet like 67P and how did that oxygen remain in its pure state for so long?




    Further Reading:

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

  • #2
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    What conditions were necessary for molecular oxygen to get trapped in the icy crystals of a comet like 67P and how did that oxygen remain in its pure state for so long?
    Perhaps the answer to the second question is that the comet and the rest of the solar system are much younger that is generally believed. The New Horizon mission to Pluto discovered evidence that it can't be billions of years old.

    https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/20...os-atmosphere/
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
    Leonard Ravenhill

    https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by theophilus View Post
      Perhaps the answer to the second question is that the comet and the rest of the solar system are much younger that is generally believed. The New Horizon mission to Pluto discovered evidence that it can't be billions of years old.

      https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/20...os-atmosphere/
      Given the preponderance of the evidence for billions of years of time having passed in the Solar System, here are two far more likely options:

      A) the atmosphere of pluto is a temporary phenomena, caused by outgassing at close approach to the sun as pluto warms. The source then is the surface of the planet itself, and it can be regenerated (relative to the age of the solar system) indefinitely

      B) Pluto itself was a longer term interloper into the inner area of the solar system (e.g. Sedna) that perhaps due to a close approach to Neptune (it crosses inside Neptune's orbit during close approach) had its orbital period shortened.




      Jim
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
        Given the preponderance of the evidence for billions of years of time having passed in the Solar System, here are two far more likely options:

        A) the atmosphere of pluto is a temporary phenomena, caused by outgassing at close approach to the sun as pluto warms. The source then is the surface of the planet itself, and it can be regenerated (relative to the age of the solar system) indefinitely

        B) Pluto itself was a longer term interloper into the inner area of the solar system (e.g. Sedna) that perhaps due to a close approach to Neptune (it crosses inside Neptune's orbit during close approach) had its orbital period shortened.




        Jim
        More like C) the atmosphere of pluto is a temporary phenomena, caused by outgassing at close approach to the sun as pluto warms. The source then is the surface of the planet itself, and most likely only occurs for a small fraction of Pluto's orbit. Pluto is slowly losing mass due to this phenomenon, which happens because Pluto is not massive enough to long retain gaseous molecules.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

        Comment


        • #5
          The website Exposing PseudoAstronomy, run by Stuart Robbins a planetary geophysicist at Southwest Research Institute (SwRI) in Boulder, Colorado, covered this and many other claims made about Pluto by YECs in a post entitled "#NewHorizons #PlutoFlyby – The Pseudoscience Flows #9 — Young-Earth Creationist Take, Part 2." Among others he addresses is an article posted on the AnswersinGenesis (AiG) website called "Pluto’s Surface Is Young!" (which I suspect might have influenced Clyde Herrin's short post that theophilus cites) by Danny R. Faulkner, an astronomer associated with the Creation Research Society. About the outgassing Robbin's wrote;
          Here is the second argument that Danny made: Pluto is outgassing nitrogen, and therefore it’s young because it is a body of finite size and because there should be some activity that releases the nitrogen.

          Yes, Pluto was found to be outgassing molecular nitrogen gas. Though “outgassing” is the wrong word here — perhaps an honest mistake, but it’s wrong nonetheless. It’s that nitrogen gas is escaping from the surface, not being outgassed from below the surface (that we know of). So this is a classic creationist argument: Take the current rate for something, multiply it by 4.5 billion years, and claim it’s impossible. They do that with Earth’s moon. But in this case, Danny didn’t even do that simple math, even if it is wrong (the current rate may not be what it was in the past). 500 tons per hour means very roughly 2*1019 kg over 4.5 billion years. Pluto is 1.3*1022 kg. That means it would have lost a mere 0.15% of its mass due to nitrogen escaping over 4.5 billion years if the current rate has been the rate for 4.5 billion years.

          Not a problem.

          One thing that I'll note, the NASA article that Herrin quotes does specifically say the nitrogen comes from Pluto's atmosphere although I don't think that automatically eliminates the possibility that the the atmosphere is being created by the (ex) planet's surface.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            Rogue,

            Dont'cha know that any piece of data that could possibly fit a YEC scenario obviates millions of consilient data points in support of OEC?

            Do Protestant churches have Confession?

            Well, they should.

            If not, perhaps Fra Jorge could take it. (?)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              More like C) the atmosphere of pluto is a temporary phenomena, caused by outgassing at close approach to the sun as pluto warms. The source then is the surface of the planet itself, and most likely only occurs for a small fraction of Pluto's orbit. Pluto is slowly losing mass due to this phenomenon, which happens because Pluto is not massive enough to long retain gaseous molecules.
              Isn't that what I listed as A) - just with a little elaboration?

              Jim

              PS: And yes, 'outgassing' is probably not the correct term, but in my opinion it conveys the idea the atmospheric gases are coming from pluto itself and thus being replenished in a more concise fashion. I am sure there are those reading that will be aghast I could make such an accommodation to technical accuracy, but hey, there it is ...
              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 10-29-2015, 03:51 PM.
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                Isn't that what I listed as A) - just with a little elaboration?

                Jim
                1,000 Pluto orbits vis-a-vis 100,000,000?

                Would it matter?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                  Isn't that what I listed as A) - just with a little elaboration?
                  Not quite - I disagree with the idea that the atmosphere can be 'regenerated' - probably why I missed the lesser quibble with outgassing.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    an article posted on the AnswersinGenesis (AiG) website called "Pluto’s Surface Is Young!" (which I suspect might have influenced Clyde Herrin's short post that theophilus cites)
                    I wrote the post right after I read the report I cited in the post, before AiG wrote anything on the subject. The post was from my blog so I was the author of it.
                    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
                    Leonard Ravenhill

                    https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                      I wrote the post right after I read the report I cited in the post, before AiG wrote anything on the subject. The post was from my blog so I was the author of it.
                      Are you saying that you're Clyde Herrin?

                      In any case Faukner wrote his article on July 20 whereas Herrin wrote his on August 9. While the AiG article may not have influenced you they did publish nearly 3 weeks before you did.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Are you saying that you're Clyde Herrin?

                        In any case Faukner wrote his article on July 20 whereas Herrin wrote his on August 9. While the AiG article may not have influenced you they did publish nearly 3 weeks before you did.
                        I wrote the article first as a post in a forum and copied it into my blog later. I did read the AiG article but it was between the time I wrote my post and the time I published it in my blog.
                        The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
                        Leonard Ravenhill

                        https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                          I wrote the post right after I read the report I cited in the post, before AiG wrote anything on the subject. The post was from my blog so I was the author of it.
                          FYI, whether Pluto's surface is "young" only addresses the age of Pluto's surface.

                          Surtsey is young as well.

                          Learn and stick to evidentiary consilience.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                            FYI, whether Pluto's surface is "young" only addresses the age of Pluto's surface.
                            Isn't the whole planet the same age?
                            The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
                            Leonard Ravenhill

                            https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                              Isn't the whole planet the same age?
                              Nope!

                              The island of Surtesy is not the same age as Earth.

                              And the residence time of aluminum in the oceans is not the same age as Earth.

                              Lower bound...

                              Earth is a dynamic planet due to its internal heat and the surface water, air, and gravitational activities. And to a minor amount meteor impacts.

                              Pluto apparently has some dynamic processes as well.

                              Comment

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