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How bad is science knowledge in the US?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Silly pirate. It becomes night cause we be in the shade then.
    wow. I never knew that. thanks. science is amazing!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
      It would help to properly characterize events. Unless you're claiming that the goal is to purposefully dumb down all people (in which case, substantiate), then there's no attack here. We have enough hyperbole in the U.S. without pointing to every single thing and calling it an attack.
      At my school not only were they not teaching as much(fewer lessons, and less homework), they sent me(and the other straight A students) to the "advanced classes". Where all they did was have us sit around for an hour or two while the other kids did their work.

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      • #33
        I knew someone who was in graduate school for public policy. And they were required to take a course in computer programming, and write some fairly sophisticated BASIC programs. For many of the students, this turned out to be extremely hard, and some asked why they had to do this, when they would never program a computer in their entire careers.

        And the instructor said, yeah, that's probably true. But when the geeks come into your office and plunk down a 2-foot-thick pile of printouts and say "we modeled the air war over Europe in WWIII and the computer says we need 47 more jets", you'll have some idea what this is based on and be able to make a more intelligent and informed decision." You don't have to be a wizard programmer to understand that computer models are simply sophisticated calculations stemming from a set of assumptions. The results can nonetheless be surprising and unexpected, but what they can not tell you is that your assumptions are wrong.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
          Having seen the attacks* on education myself, he's right. Every year that my brother and I were going to school, I could see the deterioration in what they taught, and how much. Then there's the fact that they purposely tried to slow down the smart kids so those behind could catch up.

          *Might not be the same kind of attack Jorge is talking about, but I saw attacks on education nonetheless, and this was from inside the schools too.
          A large part of the problem IMHO is the trend in the last few decades to grade teachers' performance by how well their class does. That drives teachers to be less demanding of students, drives a push for easier (i.e. dumber) lesson plans with a higher chance of a good grade. Slacking students used to fail and suffer the consequences. Now if they fail it's the teacher's fault and the teacher is punished. Not sure how it would be implemented (maybe something like tenure on a 5 or 10 year teaching contract (?) ) but we need to find a better way to 1) evaluate our teachers so they can demand more effort from their students and 2) keep the teaching standards high with a program like Common Core.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
            At my school not only were they not teaching as much(fewer lessons, and less homework), they sent me(and the other straight A students) to the "advanced classes". Where all they did was have us sit around for an hour or two while the other kids did their work.
            You've said that before. What's missing is the hidden agenda. It's easy to mistake incompetency for something more sinister.
            I'm not here anymore.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by HMS_Beagle View Post
              A large part of the problem IMHO is the trend in the last few decades to grade teachers' performance by how well their class does. That drives teachers to be less demanding of students, drives a push for easier (i.e. dumber) lesson plans with a higher chance of a good grade. Slacking students used to fail and suffer the consequences. Now if they fail it's the teacher's fault and the teacher is punished. Not sure how it would be implemented (maybe something like tenure on a 5 or 10 year teaching contract (?) ) but we need to find a better way to 1) evaluate our teachers so they can demand more effort from their students and 2) keep the teaching standards high with a program like Common Core.
              I'd agree that that is likely part of the problem. That still wouldn't explain what they did at my school, which was the "advanced classes".

              Looking at just the mission statement I can say that I would agree with Common Core.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                You've said that before. What's missing is the hidden agenda. It's easy to mistake incompetency for something more sinister.
                When the "incompetency" hits a certain level, it's harder to just see it as merely that. You may be right, but honestly, I think things are far worse if you are.

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                • #38
                  Lookest over there.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Wait. what? The earth goes around the sun?

                    When did this happen? What did it do when it got to the other side?


                    I don't think we've gotten to the other side ... but I bet when we do, we meet the chicken who crossed the road.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                      When the "incompetency" hits a certain level, it's harder to just see it as merely that. You may be right, but honestly, I think things are far worse if you are.
                      Obviously, having not experienced it myself there's only so far I can take this. It helps to lay out motivations, while noting that possible motivations are at best speculative. Consider these questions:

                      What does it gain to lower the general knowledge level of all students?
                      What does it gain to limit the smarter kids in the class?
                      What does it gain to split off the more intelligent into separate classes?
                      What does it gain to make sure all kids score equally well on the basics?


                      The first has no answer that I can imagine. For the second, I could consider that there's some misguided goal of making all students feel equally intelligent. This is countered by splitting off the smarter kids into a different class for any length of time. The answer to the third question could be two-fold: it gives the slower students time to catch up without feeling pressured, and it gets the smarter kids away to keep them from being disruptive. Unless the advanced classes have separate curricula, I'm not sure how they truly classify as advanced. What you've described certainly doesn't resemble anything 'advanced'. The fifth question is administrative. As has been mentioned, there's a push to make a certain quantity of students pass standardized testing, and poor performance hurts the teacher. Limiting the scope of education to ensure that all students can easily pass those tests would certainly match your experience.
                      I'm not here anymore.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                        When the "incompetency" hits a certain level, it's harder to just see it as merely that. You may be right, but honestly, I think things are far worse if you are.
                        It seems like this was extreme incompetency in one particular location. However, I have been in many, many schools for professional and other reasons (easily at least 40) and I can attest that this experience is not the norm at all. There's no conspiracy, some people just don't know how to do their jobs.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                          “What the deuce is it to me?" he interrupted impatiently: "you say that we go round the sun. If we went round the moon it would not make a pennyworth of difference to me or to my work.”
                          LOL! My first thought when I read the OP. Not that I don't think Outis doesn't have a point. But this was exactly what came to mind.
                          Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                            LOL! My first thought when I read the OP. Not that I don't think Outis doesn't have a point. But this was exactly what came to mind.
                            Rassle-frassin SHERLOCK fans!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                              Obviously, having not experienced it myself there's only so far I can take this. It helps to lay out motivations, while noting that possible motivations are at best speculative. Consider these questions:

                              What does it gain to lower the general knowledge level of all students?
                              What does it gain to limit the smarter kids in the class?
                              What does it gain to split off the more intelligent into separate classes?
                              What does it gain to make sure all kids score equally well on the basics?


                              The first has no answer that I can imagine. For the second, I could consider that there's some misguided goal of making all students feel equally intelligent. This is countered by splitting off the smarter kids into a different class for any length of time. The answer to the third question could be two-fold: it gives the slower students time to catch up without feeling pressured, and it gets the smarter kids away to keep them from being disruptive. Unless the advanced classes have separate curricula, I'm not sure how they truly classify as advanced. What you've described certainly doesn't resemble anything 'advanced'. The fifth question is administrative. As has been mentioned, there's a push to make a certain quantity of students pass standardized testing, and poor performance hurts the teacher. Limiting the scope of education to ensure that all students can easily pass those tests would certainly match your experience.
                              1. Given the hatred I have seen from some teachers and professors. It wouldn't surprise me if they wanted some kind of collapse of American society. Would you put this one under incompetence?

                              2.I feel this one ties in with the my answer to the first, and a bit with your answer.

                              3.I knew the other kids in the "advanced classes". They were not disruptive. There was little to no "pressure" on them in the school, unless they were both disruptive, and were falling behind.

                              4. I agree with you on that one. The thing is, what they were doing wasn't helping.

                              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                              It seems like this was extreme incompetency in one particular location. However, I have been in many, many schools for professional and other reasons (easily at least 40) and I can attest that this experience is not the norm at all. There's no conspiracy, some people just don't know how to do their jobs.
                              Do you count separate schools as "one location"?

                              Based on what I have heard from my home-bound teachers, and a few home school groups, this is more widespread than you might think.

                              Carrikature could be right, but when you see such things, and hear about them in a great range of places**, it makes you think something else is going on.

                              *Home bound is where the school would send a teacher to the home of someone unable to attend due to medical problems.
                              **My former neurologist had patients from literally around the world, and while waiting for treatment got to do a lot of talking. I know this is anecdotal though.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                Attacks by Centrum123 and Jorge on science and science education.

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