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Jeddidiah's question?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    I do not have any questions. You asked me, and jumped to conclusions about me and my approach that had no bearing or relationship to what I said(" . . . but since you are assuming a fideist approach,"
    You did have a question where I quoted you from another thread, and answered it.

    The days in Genesis were long undefined periods of time. What is normally seen as various evolved organisms are all individual fiat creations of God. I have asked in the past how one could tell the difference between this and evolution. Evolutionists have never answered me.
    Reread my post. I asked a question. I did not say you are 'assuming a fideist approach. Quote me correctly than respond.

    you also assumed that I was rejecting what science has learned about the past of the earth). I attempted to address these and now you want to know if I have any questions of you. You have not addressed anything I wrote but only what you assumed I was going to go next. If you want to know something specific, ask me - don't tell me what I believe.
    Fiat Creation

    Source: https://strengthenedbygrace.wordpress.com/2010/02/28/fiat-creationism-simplified/



    “This is the idea that God, by a direct act, brought into being virtually instantaneously everything that is. Note two features of this view. One is the brevity of time involved, and hence the relative recency of what occurred at creation. . . . Another tenet of this view is the idea of direct divine working. God produced the world and everything in it, not by the use of any indirect means or biological mechanisms, but by direct action and contact” Millard Erickson)

    © Copyright Original Source



    I would consider fiat creation as described above to be in conflict with scientific version of the history of the universe and evolution. I was waiting for your take on it that may be in harmony with science.

    The Genesis account of Creation is not remotely equivalent in time, description, nor sequence of events including evolution. The diversity of species (millions) and subspecies, and the close relationship between many species, as well as the apparent evolution we witness today is not compatable with fiat creationism.

    Fideism nor presuppositionism is necessarily incompatable with fiat creationism. Creation from the fideist approach often claims that the appearance of age and the evidence of the scientific view is fiat Created as is.

    I did not tell you what you believe. I asked questions.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-18-2015, 02:52 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      You did have a question where I quoted you from another thread, and answered it.
      I did state that I had in the past asked such a question without response. You are the one who brought it here. So far no one has given me an answer that fit my clarifications. I am very disappointed in the nature of responses so far.

      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Reread my post. I asked a question. I did not say you are 'assuming a fideist approach. Quote me correctly than respond.
      Okay, I withdraw that claim.

      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Fiat Creation. . . snip . . .

      I would consider fiat creation as described above to be in conflict with scientific version of the history of the universe and evolution. I was waiting for your take on it that may be in harmony with science.
      I also see the above YEC definition to be inconsistent with scientific understanding. But I also have already pointed out that I am not YEC. It is pointless to use such sources.

      Fiat in fact refers to authority with power, to command or to mandate. That is the sense in which I used it.

      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      The Genesis account of Creation is not remotely equivalent in time, description, nor sequence of events including evolution. The diversity of species (millions) and subspecies, and the close relationship between many species, as well as the apparent evolution we witness today is not compatable with fiat creationism.
      Fideism nor presuppositionism is necessarily incompatable with fiat creationism. Creation from the fideist approach often claims that the appearance of age and the evidence of the scientific view is fiat Created as is.
      Once again it is pointless to use these YEC claims against me. I am still not YEC. None of this applies to my question, with clarifications as to my position.


      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      I did not tell you what you believe. I asked questions.
      I have already withdrawn that accusation. It was my misunderstanding of your intent. I fell into the same fault you did - making incorrect assumptions.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
        your post makes too many assumptions...
        Such as?
        ...and does not consider the additional explanations I gave to Shuny.
        I can't see anything that affects what I wrote, but feel free to point out what I missed.
        Try again.
        Unless you come up with actual specific objections, it'd be a waste of time. Nor do I need to.

        Roy
        Last edited by Roy; 05-18-2015, 05:50 PM.
        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

        MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
        MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

        seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Roy View Post
          Such as? I can't see anything that affects what I wrote, but feel free to point out what I missed.Unless you come up with actual specific objections, it'd be a waste of time. Nor do I need to.

          Roy
          Apparently you can not read. Don't waste your time any longer if you do not care to deal with what I have written.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
            I did state that I had in the past asked such a question without response. You are the one who brought it here. So far no one has given me an answer that fit my clarifications. I am very disappointed in the nature of responses so far.


            Nonetheless it is your question from a previous thread that I brought here because I cannot post in that section. The highlighted is illusive, and vague, because you have not presented 'your clarifications.'

            I also see the above YEC definition to be inconsistent with scientific understanding. But I also have already pointed out that I am not YEC. It is pointless to use such sources.
            All the sources I could find concerning fiat Creationism fit the definition I provided.

            Fiat in fact refers to authority with power, to command or to mandate. That is the sense in which I used it.
            This may be the case, but all the different theological views of Creation, including Theistic Evolution and YEC. This is the reason I asked for clarification. So far your belief in Fiat Creationism does not distinguish it from other beliefs in Creationism. Clarification needed.

            Once again it is pointless to use these YEC claims against me. I am still not YEC. None of this applies to my question, with clarifications as to my position.
            Waiting for clarifications. My discussion of world views like YEC which are related to fiat Creationism. was not accusing you of believing in YEC.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              Nonetheless it is your question from a previous thread that I brought here because I cannot post in that section. The highlighted is illusive, and vague, because you have not presented 'your clarifications.'
              I certainly did.

              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
              I agree with the modern scientific understanding of the nature of the world and the rest of the universe (as far as that goes). If you have specific questions about that shoot.

              Snip

              My understanding is exactly the same as the majority with one exception - I make one less assumption; I do not add in the requirement that there be a purely material explanation for what we see in the fossil record. Where others, including Theistic Evolutionists, see evolution in action I see the fiat creative action of God. Everything is exactly the same otherwise.
              As I said if you have any specific questions, ask.

              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              All the sources I could find concerning fiat Creationism fit the definition I provided.
              I explained what I meant by fiat creation, I do not care what someone else may mean by it. The term fiat does not have any sort of time constraints.

              I do not know how much clearer I can make this unless there is something you fail to understand. My view of the history of the universe and of earth is exactly the same as the majority scientific view with my one exception - which I have clearly mentioned.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                Such as? I can't see anything that affects what I wrote, but feel free to point out what I missed.
                As quoted the first post Jedidiah claimed that creation was done in successive periods according to the order in Genesis. Later he suggests something different: that "God created things in the same time frame as we see expressed in the geological, and fossil record".

                I'm not sure if he genuinely thinks it's a coherent modification or whether it's just a goalpost switch.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                  As I said if you have any specific questions, ask.
                  Please provide your clarifications specifically.


                  I explained what I meant by fiat creation, I do not care what someone else may mean by it.
                  What you described is not fiat Creationism, but a vague generic concept that could include all theist creationist world views. Needs clarification. In your definition everything form Theistic Evolution to YEC will fit.

                  The term fiat does not have any sort of time constraints.
                  By All the standard definitions I could find on the web it most definitely does, recency.

                  I do not know how much clearer I can make this unless there is something you fail to understand. My view of the history of the universe and of earth is exactly the same as the majority scientific view with my one exception - which I have clearly mentioned.
                  If this is the case, than Theistic Evolution fits well with your world view, and that God Created our physical existence in the manner scientific knowledge describes it.

                  Paprika's previous post is relevant.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    Apparently you can not read. Don't waste your time any longer if you do not care to deal with what I have written.
                    You haven't written anything worth reading. You haven't identified any unwarranted assumptions, you haven't pointed out anything I missed, you haven't even attempted to deal with specific examples.

                    All you have is vague hand-waving and empty dismissals.

                    One last attempt to elicit substance:
                    As I said if you have any specific questions, ask.
                    In what order were bats, birds, trees, dolphins, sharks, plesiosaurs, lizards, crocodiles and tapirs created?

                    Roy
                    Last edited by Roy; 05-19-2015, 01:28 PM.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                      As quoted the first post Jedidiah claimed that creation was done in successive periods according to the order in Genesis. Later he suggests something different: that "God created things in the same time frame as we see expressed in the geological, and fossil record".

                      I'm not sure if he genuinely thinks it's a coherent modification or whether it's just a goalpost switch.
                      Yes, I saw that, but it's possible to have the same time frame without changing the order of creation. Or he may think the evolutionary order matches the Genesis days. There's no way to tell, and Jedidiah is refusing to elaborate.

                      Roy
                      Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                      MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                      MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                      seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Paprika View Post
                        As quoted the first post Jedidiah claimed that creation was done in successive periods according to the order in Genesis. Later he suggests something different: that "God created things in the same time frame as we see expressed in the geological, and fossil record".

                        I'm not sure if he genuinely thinks it's a coherent modification or whether it's just a goalpost switch.
                        Not a modification at all. Simply a change of perspective.
                        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          What you described is not fiat Creationism, but a vague generic concept that could include all theist creationist world views. Needs clarification. In your definition everything form Theistic Evolution to YEC will fit.
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          By All the standard definitions I could find on the web it most definitely does, recency.
                          Look at the definition of fiat, stop looking at only the exact phrase. I already answered this objection.[/quote]

                          You failed to read my statement, and answered a different one. I wrote, "The term fiat does not have any sort of time constraints. " I did not write that the term Fiat Creation as used by YE folks does not have any time constraints.

                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          If this is the case, than Theistic Evolution fits well with your world view, and that God Created our physical existence in the manner scientific knowledge describes it.
                          The only real difference between what I described and any evolutionary approach is the inclusion of fiat action on the part of God. If I am not constrained to accept natural process there is no real difference. In that case what we have is not really evolution.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Roy View Post
                            One last attempt to elicit substance:

                            In what order were bats, birds, trees, dolphins, sharks, plesiosaurs, lizards, crocodiles and tapirs created?

                            Roy
                            What does the fossil record reveal? That is your answer.
                            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                              In what order were bats, birds, trees, dolphins, sharks, plesiosaurs, lizards, crocodiles and tapirs created?
                              What does the fossil record reveal? That is your answer.
                              No, it isn't an answer. It's a dodge. If you were really asking about differences between the results of creation and evolution, as per the OP:

                              "The days in Genesis were long undefined periods of time. What is normally seen as various evolved organisms are all individual fiat creations of God. I have asked in the past how one could tell the difference between this and evolution."

                              you wouldn't simply declare the results as equivalent without bothering to check. Like so many creation advocates you seem interested only in propping up your preconceived ideas, without caring whether they're correct.

                              Roy
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                              seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                No, it isn't an answer. It's a dodge. If you were really asking about differences between the results of creation and evolution, as per the OP:

                                "The days in Genesis were long undefined periods of time. What is normally seen as various evolved organisms are all individual fiat creations of God. I have asked in the past how one could tell the difference between this and evolution."

                                you wouldn't simply declare the results as equivalent without bothering to check. Like so many creation advocates you seem interested only in propping up your preconceived ideas, without caring whether they're correct.

                                Roy
                                Since you seem to know better than I do there is no need for me to respond. I posited a position and no one is willing to answer. No big deal.
                                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                                Comment

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