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Stellar and Planetary Evolution

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  • Stellar and Planetary Evolution

    When it comes to the evolution of the biosphere, we have the mechanic of the gene passing self replicating naturally selecting cell to explain the formation of the species within.

    I was wondering...do you think one day we will ascribe some sort of mechanic, to explain the formation of planetary bodies, stars, quasars, and all the other galactic formations?

    Is it simply "gravity"?
    Last edited by Pytharchimedes; 04-23-2015, 08:22 PM.

  • #2
    Yes (plus fission/fusion)
    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
    Mountain Man: this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

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    • #3
      the laws of physics, particularly gravity and nuclear fusion and the balance between them is sufficient to explain star formation I think. We use the word 'evolution' talking about stars but it's not really anything of the sort, but rather a timeline for the different stages of a star.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Roy View Post
        Yes (plus fission/fusion)
        Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
        the laws of physics, particularly gravity and nuclear fusion and the balance between them is sufficient to explain star formation I think. We use the word 'evolution' talking about stars but it's not really anything of the sort, but rather a timeline for the different stages of a star.
        I would say both of these stages of formation would be under the control of the nuclear fusion gravity balance(as you call it), when would you say the biological mechanic takes over?
        Attached Files

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
          I would say both of these stages of formation would be under the control of the nuclear fusion gravity balance(as you call it), when would you say the biological mechanic takes over?
          When life begins with variations.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
            When life begins with variations.
            Why would the gravitational fusion balance not still control the variations of life? What makes them special?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
              Why would the gravitational fusion balance not still control the variations of life?
              Well, life has to deal with gravity, and the fusion in the sun is still going on to produce light, which also produces heat, so.... well... I'm not sure where you're going with this.
              Last edited by Yttrium; 04-23-2015, 10:33 PM.
              Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
                The what now?
                The gravity and nuclear fusion and the balance between them that forms stars, the mechanic involved, when does that force recede and the variations of life take over as the mechanic of biological forms.

                Could you even distinguish such a thing?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
                  The gravity and nuclear fusion and the balance between them that forms stars, the mechanic involved, when does that force recede and the variations of life take over as the mechanic of biological forms.

                  Could you even distinguish such a thing?
                  Gravity and fusion only become an issue for masses orders of magnitude larger than life usually employs.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
                    The gravity and nuclear fusion and the balance between them that forms stars, the mechanic involved, when does that force recede and the variations of life take over as the mechanic of biological forms.
                    They don't exactly recede. They have an impact on the development of life. Life has to adapt to the gravity of the planet, and the fusion in the sun provides most of the energy necessary for life to exist. However, all the work for creating the elements necessary for life has long been finished via stellar fusion.
                    Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Yttrium View Post
                      They don't exactly recede. They have an impact on the development of life. Life has to adapt to the gravity of the planet, and the fusion in the sun provides most of the energy necessary for life to exist. However, all the work for creating the elements necessary for life has long been finished via stellar fusion.
                      The gravitational nuclear fusion balance does not recede? It was assuming total control of the elements down to the most explicit unit, and then suddenly the biological mechanic comes along and somehow takes partial control? If some value(the mechanic at work forming galactic bodies) is at 100% and does not recede, then how can some other thing fill in a percentage?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
                        The gravitational nuclear fusion balance does not recede? It was assuming total control of the elements down to the most explicit unit, and then suddenly the biological mechanic comes along and somehow takes partial control? If some value(the mechanic at work forming galactic bodies) is at 100% and does not recede, then how can some other thing fill in a percentage?
                        It has to do with mass. The gravitational and fusion forces affecting star formation are only significant on large masses. Once a planet is formed, chemical reactions have much more influence on compounds formed ( and hence organisms).

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                          It has to do with mass. The gravitational and fusion forces affecting star formation are only significant on large masses. Once a planet is formed, chemical reactions have much more influence on compounds formed ( and hence organisms).
                          Why does the formation of a planet mean less mass? It seems that the forming of a planet gathers mass together, and thus increasing the activity of the gravitational and fusion forces? If low mass was responsible for biological machines we would more likely see them in the void of space.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
                            Why does the formation of a planet mean less mass? It seems that the forming of a planet gathers mass together, and thus increasing the activity of the gravitational and fusion forces? If low mass was responsible for biological machines we would more likely see them in the void of space.
                            The formation of a planet does not mean less mass. You're making this much more difficult than it really is.

                            Consider:

                            1. Space with dust hydrogen in it

                            2. By the action of gravity, the particles aggregate, as more and more aggregates, the resulting sphere has more and more mass and exerts a greater gravitational force on the remaining dust.

                            3. As the sphere becomes larger, the temperature and pressure in its interior become larger thanks to gravity compressing it.

                            4. If the sphere continues to aggregate, the pressure and temperature at its core will reach a point where fusion of hydrogen nuclei to form helium takes place. This produces massive amounts of energy which tend to burst outwards from the centre in direct opposition to the gravitational compression. When these forces 'balance' the star attains a stable size (until more weird stuff happens later when it runs out of hydrogen.)

                            So you see star processes only begin once the mass crosses that threshold where gravitational compression can trigger fusion.

                            Let's talk about planets:

                            1. As stars go through their stages, they produce heavier elements.

                            2. These heavier elements are ejected from the star and begin to accrete in gravitationally stable orbits around the star. (I am simplifying a lot!)

                            3. Our old friend gravity tends to push these elements together into a sphere. (rather like a snowball rolling down a mountain.)

                            4. However, these bodies are not massive enough to produce the compression for fusion and so these bodies remain 'cold'.

                            5. This is a planet.

                            Now let's think about what happens on the planet.

                            1. There are lots of different kinds of molecules on the planet.

                            2. Given a particular chemistry and conditions, molecules combine and change. The laws at play here are not nuclear (not enough energy for that) but rather chemical (moving electrons around between atoms.)

                            3. In some instances complex, self replicating molecules and systems may form (how rare or common this is, we simply don't know).

                            4. Now we have the beginnings of life.

                            If variations exist in life forms that will be more or less adapted to the environment then actual evolution begins.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pytharchimedes View Post
                              The gravitational nuclear fusion balance does not recede? It was assuming total control of the elements down to the most explicit unit, and then suddenly the biological mechanic comes along and somehow takes partial control? If some value(the mechanic at work forming galactic bodies) is at 100% and does not recede, then how can some other thing fill in a percentage?
                              I think you are confused.

                              Your question is akin to asking when "fishing" with rod and line became "phishing" with fake e-mails, and wondering what process caused barbed metal hooks with monofilament lead-lines to become electronic hooks with catchy headlines.

                              Stellar evolution and biological evolution are unrelated process that operate on different scales and bodies via different mechanisms.

                              Roy
                              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                              mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                              Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                              Mountain Man: this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                              Comment

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