A question for Materialists/Atheist/ Humanists and their allies

[Jorge]

What chemical reaction is it that allows a chemical
reaction to become aware that it is a chemical reaction?


Anticipated answer: It's not "a" chemical reaction, it's a "set" of chemical reactions.

Okay, so what was the original set of chemical reactions that allowed that set
of chemical reactions to become aware that it was a set of chemical reactions?

Anticipated answer:
"Duhhhh, no one knows but we "do know" that it happened because here we are!"

Jorge

[pancreasman]

What chemical reaction is it that allows a chemical
reaction to become aware that it is a chemical reaction?


Anticipated answer: It's not "a" chemical reaction, it's a "set" of chemical reactions.

Okay, so what was the original set of chemical reactions that allowed that set
of chemical reactions to become aware that it was a set of chemical reactions?

Anticipated answer:
"Duhhhh, no one knows but we "do know" that it happened because here we are!"

Jorge

Never mind chemical reactions, at what level of complexity do organisms become aware they are organisms? The evidence is very sketchy. Does an ant reflect on itself? How would we know?

[JonathanL]

Does an ant reflect on itself?

They do reflect in a mirror.

[rwatts]

What chemical reaction is it that allows a chemical
reaction to become aware that it is a chemical reaction?

As far as I know there is no chemical reaction that provides reactions with an awareness that they are chemical reactions, as opposed to, say, bodies falling in a gravitational field.

Chemical reactions occur because of properties of atoms e.g. electrical charges possessed by atoms, the distribution of those charges, etc.

(A similar situation is this - there is no floor we know of which tells a floor to not let chairs fall though. Chairs don't fall through floors because of the strength of the material making up the floor, which in turn depends on the chemical bonds atoms make with each other, and so on.)

[pancreasman]

They do reflect in a mirror.

Not vampire ants.

[Jorge]

Never mind chemical reactions, at what level of complexity do organisms become aware they are organisms? The evidence is very sketchy. Does an ant reflect on itself? How would we know?

Ants, aardvarks or whatever we don't know. We DO know that humans are aware and so "awareness" emerged at some time. As a Biblical Christian, I know precisely when and how that emergence occurred and, furthermore, it's completely rational to expect that this happened (created in the image of God ... Genesis 1-2 ... etc.). HINT: it wasn't a "chemical reaction" or any "set" of reactions.

The question, however, remains for Materialists/Atheists/Humanists and their allies. How do they get past this question? Easy! They do so by FAITH!

Jorge

[Jorge]

As far as I know there is no chemical reaction that provides reactions with an awareness that they are chemical reactions, as opposed to, say, bodies falling in a gravitational field.

Chemical reactions occur because of properties of atoms e.g. electrical charges possessed by atoms, the distribution of those charges, etc.

(A similar situation is this - there is no floor we know of which tells a floor to not let chairs fall though. Chairs don't fall through floors because of the strength of the material making up the floor, which in turn depends on the chemical bonds atoms make with each other, and so on.)

Evasive tactics aside, what chemistry-physics yields/generates self-awareness?

Since Materialists like yourself have not doubt that you are self-aware, and since by definition Materialists believe that mass-energy is all that there is, then kindly answer the question.

Jorge

[seer]

From neuroscientist and atheist Sam Harris:

The problem, however, is that no evidence for consciousness exists in the physical world.[6] Physical events are simply mute as to whether it is “like something” to be what they are. The only thing in this universe that attests to the existence of consciousness is consciousness itself; the only clue to subjectivity, as such, is subjectivity. Absolutely nothing about a brain, when surveyed as a physical system, suggests that it is a locus of experience. Were we not already brimming with consciousness ourselves, we would find no evidence of it in the physical universe—nor would we have any notion of the many experiential states that it gives rise to. The painfulness of pain, for instance, puts in an appearance only in consciousness. And no description of C-fibers or pain-avoiding behavior will bring the subjective reality into view...

...Most scientists are confident that consciousness emerges from unconscious complexity. We have compelling reasons for believing this, because the only signs of consciousness we see in the universe are found in evolved organisms like ourselves. Nevertheless, this notion of emergence strikes me as nothing more than a restatement of a miracle. To say that consciousness emerged at some point in the evolution of life doesn’t give us an inkling of how it could emerge from unconscious processes, even in principle.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/t...-consciousness

[seer]

They do reflect in a mirror.

Actually there are about eight species that do pass the mirror test, which suggests some degree of self-awareness.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#Cetaceans

[oxmixmudd]

Evasive tactics aside, what chemistry-physics yields/generates self-awareness?

Since Materialists like yourself have not doubt that you are self-aware, and since by definition Materialists believe that mass-energy is all that there is, then kindly answer the question.

Jorge

Jorge - the simple answer is that no-one knows the answer. And I don't see why anyone would need to claim we do. Perhaps if one's philosophy required that self-awareness be a purely physical phenomenon one might feel obligated to produce a purely physical answer, but that is not necessary in my case.


Jim

[sfs1]

I'd be interested to know what spiritual or other non-physical process generates self-awareness.

[rwatts]

what chemistry-physics yields/generates self-awareness?

Oh is that what you were asking Jorge? Why didn't you say so?

Just like you have no idea, so we have no idea.

To my mind, self-awareness is one of these things we call an "emergent phenomenon", you know, something like a white crystalline life sustaining substance called "salt", naturally deriving from two poisonous amorphous elements, one a green grass called "chlorine" and the other a soft explosive metal called "sodium". Mix those two dissimilar, poisonous, amorphous elements together and "pop", out comes a life sustaining crystalline substance. So combine matter and energy in certain complex ways and "pop", out comes self-awareness.

But beyond offering salt as an example of an emergent phenomenon and suggesting that self-awareness is like that, I have no explanation.

What about you?

[Duragizer]

Not vampire ants.

Well, that all depends on which vampire ant lore you're referencing. According to some traditions, vampire ants just can't stomach seeing their reflections in the mirror.

[Roy]

Ants, aardvarks or whatever we don't know. We DO know that humans are aware and so "awareness" emerged at some time. As a Biblical Christian, I know precisely when and how that emergence occurred ...

No, you don't. Even if you were right - which you aren't - you still don't have the faintest idea how your god caused such emergence.

Nor can you answer the question your own OP. Even if YEC is 100% correct, you still don't know what causes self-awareness. Calling it a "soul" or a "spirit" doesn't help if you can't define what a soul or spirit is composed of.

You are merely pitting your own ignorance against the supposed ignorance of others. That's a no-win proposition.

Roy

[pancreasman]

I agree that postulating 'God did it' doesn't help a great deal. If you are using self awareness as a marker for miraculous intervention you'll have to explain why God chose to make elephants self aware. I don't recall anything in the Bible about that.