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A question for Materialists/Atheist/ Humanists and their allies

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  • A question for Materialists/Atheist/ Humanists and their allies

    What chemical reaction is it that allows a chemical
    reaction to become aware that it is a chemical reaction?



    Anticipated answer: It's not "a" chemical reaction, it's a "set" of chemical reactions.

    Okay, so what was the original set of chemical reactions that allowed that set
    of chemical reactions to become aware that it was a set of chemical reactions?

    Anticipated answer:
    "Duhhhh, no one knows but we "do know" that it happened because here we are!"

    Jorge

  • #2
    Originally posted by Jorge View Post
    What chemical reaction is it that allows a chemical
    reaction to become aware that it is a chemical reaction?



    Anticipated answer: It's not "a" chemical reaction, it's a "set" of chemical reactions.

    Okay, so what was the original set of chemical reactions that allowed that set
    of chemical reactions to become aware that it was a set of chemical reactions?

    Anticipated answer:
    "Duhhhh, no one knows but we "do know" that it happened because here we are!"

    Jorge
    Never mind chemical reactions, at what level of complexity do organisms become aware they are organisms? The evidence is very sketchy. Does an ant reflect on itself? How would we know?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
      Does an ant reflect on itself?
      They do reflect in a mirror.
      ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jorge View Post
        What chemical reaction is it that allows a chemical
        reaction to become aware that it is a chemical reaction?


        As far as I know there is no chemical reaction that provides reactions with an awareness that they are chemical reactions, as opposed to, say, bodies falling in a gravitational field.

        Chemical reactions occur because of properties of atoms e.g. electrical charges possessed by atoms, the distribution of those charges, etc.

        (A similar situation is this - there is no floor we know of which tells a floor to not let chairs fall though. Chairs don't fall through floors because of the strength of the material making up the floor, which in turn depends on the chemical bonds atoms make with each other, and so on.)
        Last edited by rwatts; 03-29-2015, 10:16 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
          They do reflect in a mirror.
          Not vampire ants.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
            Never mind chemical reactions, at what level of complexity do organisms become aware they are organisms? The evidence is very sketchy. Does an ant reflect on itself? How would we know?
            Ants, aardvarks or whatever we don't know. We DO know that humans are aware and so "awareness" emerged at some time. As a Biblical Christian, I know precisely when and how that emergence occurred and, furthermore, it's completely rational to expect that this happened (created in the image of God ... Genesis 1-2 ... etc.). HINT: it wasn't a "chemical reaction" or any "set" of reactions.

            The question, however, remains for Materialists/Atheists/Humanists and their allies. How do they get past this question? Easy! They do so by FAITH!

            Jorge

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by rwatts View Post
              As far as I know there is no chemical reaction that provides reactions with an awareness that they are chemical reactions, as opposed to, say, bodies falling in a gravitational field.

              Chemical reactions occur because of properties of atoms e.g. electrical charges possessed by atoms, the distribution of those charges, etc.

              (A similar situation is this - there is no floor we know of which tells a floor to not let chairs fall though. Chairs don't fall through floors because of the strength of the material making up the floor, which in turn depends on the chemical bonds atoms make with each other, and so on.)
              Evasive tactics aside, what chemistry-physics yields/generates self-awareness?

              Since Materialists like yourself have not doubt that you are self-aware, and since by definition Materialists believe that mass-energy is all that there is, then kindly answer the question.

              Jorge

              Comment


              • #8
                From neuroscientist and atheist Sam Harris:

                The problem, however, is that no evidence for consciousness exists in the physical world.[6] Physical events are simply mute as to whether it is “like something” to be what they are. The only thing in this universe that attests to the existence of consciousness is consciousness itself; the only clue to subjectivity, as such, is subjectivity. Absolutely nothing about a brain, when surveyed as a physical system, suggests that it is a locus of experience. Were we not already brimming with consciousness ourselves, we would find no evidence of it in the physical universe—nor would we have any notion of the many experiential states that it gives rise to. The painfulness of pain, for instance, puts in an appearance only in consciousness. And no description of C-fibers or pain-avoiding behavior will bring the subjective reality into view...

                ...Most scientists are confident that consciousness emerges from unconscious complexity. We have compelling reasons for believing this, because the only signs of consciousness we see in the universe are found in evolved organisms like ourselves. Nevertheless, this notion of emergence strikes me as nothing more than a restatement of a miracle. To say that consciousness emerged at some point in the evolution of life doesn’t give us an inkling of how it could emerge from unconscious processes, even in principle.
                http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/t...-consciousness
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                  They do reflect in a mirror.
                  Actually there are about eight species that do pass the mirror test, which suggests some degree of self-awareness.


                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#Cetaceans
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                    Evasive tactics aside, what chemistry-physics yields/generates self-awareness?

                    Since Materialists like yourself have not doubt that you are self-aware, and since by definition Materialists believe that mass-energy is all that there is, then kindly answer the question.

                    Jorge
                    Jorge - the simple answer is that no-one knows the answer. And I don't see why anyone would need to claim we do. Perhaps if one's philosophy required that self-awareness be a purely physical phenomenon one might feel obligated to produce a purely physical answer, but that is not necessary in my case.


                    Jim
                    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 03-30-2015, 01:50 PM.
                    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'd be interested to know what spiritual or other non-physical process generates self-awareness.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                        what chemistry-physics yields/generates self-awareness?
                        Oh is that what you were asking Jorge? Why didn't you say so?

                        Just like you have no idea, so we have no idea.

                        To my mind, self-awareness is one of these things we call an "emergent phenomenon", you know, something like a white crystalline life sustaining substance called "salt", naturally deriving from two poisonous amorphous elements, one a green grass called "chlorine" and the other a soft explosive metal called "sodium". Mix those two dissimilar, poisonous, amorphous elements together and "pop", out comes a life sustaining crystalline substance. So combine matter and energy in certain complex ways and "pop", out comes self-awareness.

                        But beyond offering salt as an example of an emergent phenomenon and suggesting that self-awareness is like that, I have no explanation.

                        What about you?
                        Last edited by rwatts; 03-30-2015, 03:27 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                          Not vampire ants.
                          Well, that all depends on which vampire ant lore you're referencing. According to some traditions, vampire ants just can't stomach seeing their reflections in the mirror.
                          "When the Western world accepted Christianity, Caesar conquered; and the received text of Western theology was edited by his lawyers…. The brief Galilean vision of humility flickered throughout the ages, uncertainly…. But the deeper idolatry, of the fashioning of God in the image of the Egyptian, Persian, and Roman imperial rulers, was retained. The Church gave unto God the attributes which belonged exclusively to Caesar."

                          — Alfred North Whitehead

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jorge View Post
                            Ants, aardvarks or whatever we don't know. We DO know that humans are aware and so "awareness" emerged at some time. As a Biblical Christian, I know precisely when and how that emergence occurred ...
                            No, you don't. Even if you were right - which you aren't - you still don't have the faintest idea how your god caused such emergence.

                            Nor can you answer the question your own OP. Even if YEC is 100% correct, you still don't know what causes self-awareness. Calling it a "soul" or a "spirit" doesn't help if you can't define what a soul or spirit is composed of.

                            You are merely pitting your own ignorance against the supposed ignorance of others. That's a no-win proposition.

                            Roy
                            Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                            mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                            Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                            Mountain Man: … this is how liberals argue these days, with labels instead of ideas.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I agree that postulating 'God did it' doesn't help a great deal. If you are using self awareness as a marker for miraculous intervention you'll have to explain why God chose to make elephants self aware. I don't recall anything in the Bible about that.

                              Comment

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