Announcement

Collapse

Natural Science 301 Guidelines

This is an open forum area for all members for discussions on all issues of science and origins. This area will and does get volatile at times, but we ask that it be kept to a dull roar, and moderators will intervene to keep the peace if necessary. This means obvious trolling and flaming that becomes a problem will be dealt with, and you might find yourself in the doghouse.

As usual, Tweb rules apply. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Big Bang not the start? Quantum theory suggests universe has existed forever

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Big Bang not the start? Quantum theory suggests universe has existed forever

    Source: big-bang-not-start-quantum-theory-suggests-universe-has-existed-forever-1487517



    Big Bang not the start? Quantum theory suggests universe has existed forever

    The Big Bang did not mark the start of the universe, instead there was no beginning and there will be no end, scientists have suggested.

    Physicists from the University of Lethbridge in Canada and Benha University in Egypt have created a new model that applies quantum correction terms to Einstein's theory of general relativity.

    Einstein's theory predicts the universe came from an infinitely dense single point that then exploded outwards – the Big Bang. However, this state – singularity – creates a number of problems for scientists, including the fact it does not account for what happened before or at the moment of the Big Bang.

    The physicists have now incorporated principles from quantum mechanics that suggest the universe could have always existed in a "quantum potential". This, in turn, could have eventually collapsed in the hot explosion that was the Big Bang.

    Published in Physics Letters B, the scientists also say their model could account for dark matter and dark energy.

    The scientists combined the work of David Bohm, who in the 1950s looked to use quantum theory to describe the shortest paths between two points on a curved surface, and Amal Kumar Raychaudhuri, who worked on the formation of singularities.

    Using a quantum-corrected Raychaudhuri equation, they were able to create new equations to describe the expansion and evolution of the universe within general relativity. They showed that quantum particles can never meet or cross paths, phys.org explains.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Source: big-bang-not-start-quantum-theory-suggests-universe-has-existed-forever-1487517



    Big Bang not the start? Quantum theory suggests universe has existed forever

    The Big Bang did not mark the start of the universe, instead there was no beginning and there will be no end, scientists have suggested.

    Physicists from the University of Lethbridge in Canada and Benha University in Egypt have created a new model that applies quantum correction terms to Einstein's theory of general relativity.

    Einstein's theory predicts the universe came from an infinitely dense single point that then exploded outwards – the Big Bang. However, this state – singularity – creates a number of problems for scientists, including the fact it does not account for what happened before or at the moment of the Big Bang.

    The physicists have now incorporated principles from quantum mechanics that suggest the universe could have always existed in a "quantum potential". This, in turn, could have eventually collapsed in the hot explosion that was the Big Bang.

    Published in Physics Letters B, the scientists also say their model could account for dark matter and dark energy.

    The scientists combined the work of David Bohm, who in the 1950s looked to use quantum theory to describe the shortest paths between two points on a curved surface, and Amal Kumar Raychaudhuri, who worked on the formation of singularities.

    Using a quantum-corrected Raychaudhuri equation, they were able to create new equations to describe the expansion and evolution of the universe within general relativity. They showed that quantum particles can never meet or cross paths, phys.org explains.

    © Copyright Original Source

    So brave, shunya. Get ready to duck.

    Is this the item you were referring to:

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/big-bang-no...orever-1487517
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      So brave, shunya. Get ready to duck.

      Is this the item you were referring to:

      http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/big-bang-no...orever-1487517
      Yes, this is the release that described the research. Actually I have believed this is the best scenario for an explanation of the nature of our physical existence. I believe this is more in support of the existence of a multiverse and not whether our universe began as an event or it is possibly some sort of a series of cyclic universes.

      I consider the research that our universe is expanding through an infinite and eternal Quantum World or Matrix, which is the same Matrix that surrounds the universe in a multiverse. This Multiverse could possible be one of an infinite number of Multiverses.
      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

      go with the flow the river knows . . .

      Frank

      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

      Comment


      • #4
        I brought this up again for seer's benefit. All the questions concerning the origins of our universe are not answered yet. Only some models describe our universe having a beginning of any kind, and then again, none of these models describe the Big Bang as an absolute beginning.

        It is seer that needs to stop fantasizing that science describes our universe as a known beginning.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
          I brought this up again for seer's benefit. All the questions concerning the origins of our universe are not answered yet. Only some models describe our universe having a beginning of any kind, and then again, none of these models describe the Big Bang as an absolute beginning.

          It is seer that needs to stop fantasizing that science describes our universe as a known beginning.
          I am trying to remember if seer has asserted that the universe had a beginning of some sort as fact or wrote posts as though he believed that to be true. Unfortunately, you didn't cite any of his posts. You do have a problem with not citing anything, one's posts or the scientific literature.
          The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

          [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
            I am trying to remember if seer has asserted that the universe had a beginning of some sort as fact or wrote posts as though he believed that to be true. Unfortunately, you didn't cite any of his posts. You do have a problem with not citing anything, one's posts or the scientific literature.
            No problem, there is many years of history of seer and this issue. The post stands.

            The argument goes back to several threads some years ago the seer argued that the BVG theory proposed that every possible universe and every possible multiverse had a finite beginning. It is true the BVG theory is a bit dated in terms cosmology models, certain aspects remain possibly valid. There are times when seer argues theories in science to prove his agenda, but in the end he rejects the science of cosmology and origins of our existence, and a lot of other science along the way.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-03-2015, 10:11 PM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
              No problem, there is many years of history of seer and this issue. The post stands.

              The argument goes back to several threads some years ago the seer argued that the BVG theory proposed that every possible universe and every possible multiverse had a finite beginning. It is true the BVG theory is a bit dated in terms cosmology models, certain aspects remain possibly valid. There are times when seer argues theories in science to prove his agenda, but in the end he rejects the science of cosmology and origins of our existence, and a lot of other science along the way.
              Nonsense Shuny, first the BVG theory is not in the least dated. Scientists are still looking for the gravitational waves that point to inflation. Second, my point all along is that there is no evidence for eternal matter and energy, we only have evidence for this universe, and there is no evidence that this universe is past-eternal. Just the opposite, everything points to a finite cosmos that began 15 billion years ago.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                I am trying to remember if seer has asserted that the universe had a beginning of some sort as fact or wrote posts as though he believed that to be true. Unfortunately, you didn't cite any of his posts. You do have a problem with not citing anything, one's posts or the scientific literature.
                I believe seer's last post answered your question. I DO NOT have a problem here, seer does.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Nonsense Shuny, first the BVG theory is not in the least dated. Scientists are still looking for the gravitational waves that point to inflation. Second, my point all along is that there is no evidence for eternal matter and energy, we only have evidence for this universe, and there is no evidence that this universe is past-eternal. Just the opposite, everything points to a finite cosmos that began 15 billion years ago.
                  There is nothing conclusive as to whether the cosmos is finite or infinite. It remains an open unknown question. Those models like the BVG do not consider the beginning of universes as absolute beginnings, but one of many perhaps countless beginnings.

                  This model is quite viable and sound at present and concludes there is not likely a beginning nor ending of anything.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    There is nothing conclusive as to whether the cosmos is finite or infinite. It remains an open unknown question. Those models like the BVG do not consider the beginning of universes as absolute beginnings, but one of many perhaps countless beginnings.

                    This model is quite viable and sound at present and concludes there is not likely a beginning nor ending of anything.
                    While interesting, I don't see 'existence' beyond the BB a very meaningful term since all there is as far as we are concerned, including time itself, began relative to this universe with that event. And especially Theologically. The beginning of Genesis 1 is NOT God's beginning. It is ours (this universes). God is clearly present 'before' that, and is implied to exist 'after' it. As long as THIS universe, THIS existence we live and move in 'began', then there is no conflict with scripture on that front if there is in fact 'more' than that out there.


                    Jim
                    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      There is nothing conclusive as to whether the cosmos is finite or infinite. It remains an open unknown question. Those models like the BVG do not consider the beginning of universes as absolute beginnings, but one of many perhaps countless beginnings.
                      Except you are completely wrong, the BVG theory can not get us to an eternal past, and does in fact point to an "absolute" beginning, at least according to Vilenkin himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXCQelhKJ7A

                      This model is quite viable and sound at present and concludes there is not likely a beginning nor ending of anything.
                      No Shuny, it is just another idea with no actual physical evidence. I mean last year you were touting the BVG theory, then you jumped over to Steinhardt's Cyclic Universe, then quantum tunneling out of a scalar field, and now this new theory.... I mean you will latch on to almost anything to show that matter and energy are eternal, as your religious faith teaches.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        While interesting, I don't see 'existence' beyond the BB a very meaningful term since all there is as far as we are concerned, including time itself, began relative to this universe with that event. And especially Theologically. The beginning of Genesis 1 is NOT God's beginning. It is ours (this universes). God is clearly present 'before' that, and is implied to exist 'after' it. As long as THIS universe, THIS existence we live and move in 'began', then there is no conflict with scripture on that front if there is in fact 'more' than that out there.
                        Jim
                        It is not the fact that our physical existence is finite or infinite is ultimately the issue as far as science is concerned. It is unlikely that science will be able to reach back beyond 1 plank second to how our universe began or did not begin. It is the physical nature of the Quantum World that is the issue. It is likely that the Quantum world that fills the spaces between the stars, dust and galaxies is the Quantum World we came from.

                        There are many models, and some predict different beginnings and some no beginning at as the one that is the subject of this thread.

                        Yes an infinite cosmos with many universe is compatible with God and Creation.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          An interesting layman's explanation of the new research and mathematical modeling that indicates our physical existence is likely eternal.

                          Source: http://www.christianexaminer.com/article/scientists.say.no.big.bang.just.eternity/48506.htm



                          ALBERTA, Canada (Christian Examiner) -- Scientists calculating corrections to the mathematics of quantum physics relating to Einstein's special theory of relativity have proposed the universe did not originate with a big bang as once thought, but is infinite, or eternal.

                          Even in the big bang theory, scientists have concluded matter and energy pre-existed, but that a break in all deterministic laws of space, time and matter, known as a gravitational singularity, caused all matter to collect into a dense concentration and then quantum fluctuations, which are brief changes in energy, caused a rapid expansion, or explosion (described as inflation), creating the present-day universe.

                          But scientists at the University of Lethbridge in Alberta, Canada, and the Center for Fundamental Physics in Giza, Egypt, are proposing a mathematical fix which better explains what is observed about space and time with regard to how the universe came to exist in its present state.

                          Importantly, all theories for understanding the origins of the universe are based on mathematical modelling. Observed phenomena are interpreted with formulations, and, calculations are altered to add or remove constants or other factors in order to explain ongoing discoveries,

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment

                          Related Threads

                          Collapse

                          Topics Statistics Last Post
                          Started by shunyadragon, 10-17-2020, 05:11 PM
                          7 responses
                          35 views
                          0 likes
                          Last Post rogue06
                          by rogue06
                           
                          Started by shunyadragon, 10-09-2020, 09:25 PM
                          0 responses
                          22 views
                          0 likes
                          Last Post shunyadragon  
                          Started by rogue06, 10-09-2020, 03:29 PM
                          6 responses
                          51 views
                          1 like
                          Last Post shunyadragon  
                          Started by shunyadragon, 10-07-2020, 12:11 PM
                          0 responses
                          10 views
                          0 likes
                          Last Post shunyadragon  
                          Started by Sherman, 10-06-2020, 03:31 PM
                          40 responses
                          237 views
                          0 likes
                          Last Post rogue06
                          by rogue06
                           
                          Working...
                          X