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To Shuny and other geologically literate folks here. Pennsylvanian cyclothems.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
    I believe the Scriptures are true because they reflect truths I have observed in my life, including a God who is as far as I can tell all powerful, and all knowing. To try to keep Scripture generally literal as is my preferred method of reading, I accept the idea that an odd creation took place. I have reasons for my belief, I do not know what fideism really means except the obvious that it's a belief of faith due to Latin.
    Knowledge and reason are the power of understanding the nature of the world, and you appear to rejecting both without a rational reason. It would be difficult rationally to justify Creation as odd. The definition of 'fideism' is available easily through the internet as it was used in ~3rd century, and the 20th century way it is used.

    I do not think it would be a lie, so much as a work of art using natural forces that are now the natural cycle of things, so for example K54 mentioned Cyclothems which are observed to be "alternating stratigraphic sequences of marine and non-marine sediments" which scientists seem to think has something to do with glacial ice.
    The cyclothems referred to are a sequence of sandstone, shale, some limestones and coal, and nothing to do with glaciation. Please reread my previous post.

    Presumably because we know marine sediment is made in water because it was observed? I confess to not being a geologist. But if it is what we observe now it makes sense to try to figure out what caused it on land, however it comes back to, it could be where no one expected it, not because of a glacier of the gaps, but because God made things old.
    You need to back up and try to understand geology a bit. As far as a well rounded education everyone should have a basic rudimentary knowledge of geology. Nothing will make sense if this is lacking. It is more then common sense that easily observed in the world today are sedimentary deposits forming on land (windblown and coastal plains), lake deposits, and salt, shallow sea deposits and ocean deposits. The cyclothems referenced involve terrestrial and shallow freshwater sea deposits. Each has their own characteristics on the earth today as in the millions of years of strata thousands of feet thick.

    You mean Tertullian was teaching against the Neo-Platonists being Christians? Shocking from him.
    Tis was only referenced for clarification of how fideism applies here.

    Indeed. Scripture alone didn't make the phone I'm replying to you on.
    This should give you a hint of the function of science. If the science of evolution and cosmology were flawed the phone would not function as designed.

    No, I rather blame our greedy and stupid politicians on both sides of the aisle for our failing education. I greatly value reason, but I think some fields of science are more important than others, which is not, I think a controversial statement.
    This conclusion lacks foundation in fact. The number of students applying to the graduate positions is function of the interest and motivation of the students from different cultural, religious, and ethnic backgrounds. Those backgrounds that do not cultivate a positive view of the sciences will not have many students applying to the schools.

    Your view is a classic fideist justification for your belief reinforced by your disinterest in understanding the science behind evolution, earth history and cosmology.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-25-2014, 07:53 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #32
      Oh, and apparently you think that scientific method is not a reliable way to obtain information about nature.

      Funny how it works so well in non-origins areas, innit?

      K54

      Comment


      • #33
        Well, if you aren't going to give me the benefit of the doubt I'm leaving. I thought conversations happened on message boards, not mockery. I'll be honest no one has ever called me stupid before you two, but then, most people who think that they're clever can have a civil conversation. Have fun guys I'm out.

        Edit: I checked the first response to me. It isn't because I'm scared of your so-called intellect. It's because I, a 19 year old who has many nieces and nephews, and who volunteers with children at least 2 hours a week, do not have time for your childishness.
        Last edited by Pentecost; 12-25-2014, 10:26 PM. Reason: Mild shaming
        Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

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        • #34
          Sheesh. I claim the moon is made of green cheese, I don't know squat about science, I'm not about to change my belief on the basis of sheer evidence, since it's probably misinterpreted by all those people studying the moon rocks who don't share my beliefs. Now, let's have an intelligent conversation or I'm going just going to run back to where everyone agrees with me.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
            Well, if you aren't going to give me the benefit of the doubt I'm leaving. I thought conversations happened on message boards, not mockery. I'll be honest no one has ever called me stupid before you two, but then, most people who think that they're clever can have a civil conversation. Have fun guys I'm out.

            Edit: I checked the first response to me. It isn't because I'm scared of your so-called intellect. It's because I, a 19 year old who has many nieces and nephews, and who volunteers with children at least 2 hours a week, do not have time for your childishness.
            What do you mean "benefit of the doubt"? You did some philosophical blathering without attempting an explanation of the obvious history recorded in these formations.

            You're the one who needs "mild shaming".

            Do you think you can maintain such a cognitively dissonant faith through the rest of your hopefully long life?

            K54

            P.S. Where did I call you "stupid"???

            And who said you were "scared of my intellect"? I have normal intelligence but have studied a LOT of geology and mathematics.
            Last edited by klaus54; 12-26-2014, 12:47 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
              Well, if you aren't going to give me the benefit of the doubt I'm leaving. I thought conversations happened on message boards, not mockery.
              I'm not aware of any message board forum or BBS which doesn't have mockery. Even stackoverflow contains comments on contributor's coding style.

              Edit: I checked the first response to me. It isn't because I'm scared of your so-called intellect.
              Um, the first response to you was shunyadragon's post #11.

              Roy
              Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

              mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

              Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
              Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

              Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                Well, if you aren't going to give me the benefit of the doubt I'm leaving. I thought conversations happened on message boards, not mockery. I'll be honest no one has ever called me stupid before you two, but then, most people who think that they're clever can have a civil conversation. Have fun guys I'm out.

                Edit: I checked the first response to me. It isn't because I'm scared of your so-called intellect. It's because I, a 19 year old who has many nieces and nephews, and who volunteers with children at least 2 hours a week, do not have time for your childishness.
                I am not sure what you want here with 'if you aren't going to give me the benefit of the doubt,' My posts have reflected straight forward knowledge of science and geology that needs to be addressed if one is going beyond the 'fideist' or 'presuppositionalist' (ie Mr. Black's position) position from which there is no possible dialogue. You expressed confusion between the cyclothems referenced with glaciation, and stated a lack of knowledge and interest in understanding the basics of geology. Yes, I recommended taking a basic geology course in college, or even easier doing an online course, of which there are a few available free. Simply buying and reading a decent used college text works as well.

                By the way, Tweb is one of the best places to come for a dialogue on religion, philosophy and science. The roughest most up front members here are 'Clark Kents' compared to what you will get hit with in other sites and on the net in general. As far as my experience, I have been ragged on pretty hard over the years for my unorthodox views, and I am still here

                The bottom line with me is; 'Do you know the facts of the geologic and cosmologic evidence, or are you willing to learn, and how do you rationally interpret them to support your world view?'
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-26-2014, 07:20 AM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                  The majority opinion seems to be that the science is, but there is a vocal minority that I agree with upon many points that says the science is inaccurate and provides a substitution. I think for me to have an informed view I would have to either study the subject matter, or find someone I trust within the field of geology, or perhaps an astronomer, even a biologist. Until then I tentatively hold to YEC.
                  I think this is the real challenge here, for you and many other people. You trust people who say that the scientific evidence for an ancient universe is unreliable. And, since you don't know any scientists, you don't know someone you can trust who can go over the evidence with you.

                  So, ultimately, for you and many others, the issue isn't one of evidence. It's one of trust. So, my question for you would be: who would you trust? I'm an actual biologist (did nearly 20 years of research before switching fields, have a PhD in it, etc.). What would it take for you to trust me?
                  "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
                    Rogue thinks the apparent history would make a YEC God a liar; and he may have a point, because he is right God does say we can learn of Him from nature, but it seems more obvious to me that you can see him as creative with not only the vast array of odd creatures, but also the unique geologies each showing how impressive his craftmanship is. I will have to contemplate this issue and adjust accordingly if I am convinced by Rogue. If observable evidence indicates that the Earth is older than ~6,000 years old, does that prove to within a reasonable doubt that God is a liar? The answer depends on whether or not the science is an accurate reflection of reality. The majority opinion seems to be that the science is, but there is a vocal minority that I agree with upon many points that says the science is inaccurate and provides a substitution. I think for me to have an informed view I would have to either study the subject matter, or find someone I trust within the field of geology, or perhaps an astronomer, even a biologist. Until then I tentatively hold to YEC.
                    I don't think that the evidence indicating that the earth is older than 6000 years shows that God is a liar but rather is indicative that the idea that the idea that the earth is only a few thousand years old is in error.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      I don't think that the evidence indicating that the earth is older than 6000 years shows that God is a liar but rather is indicative that the idea that the idea that the earth is only a few thousand years old is in error.
                      Yes. And again apparent HISTORY is the bigger problem for YEC.

                      K54

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I eluded to this in a previous post, but the question needs to be asked.

                        I would like to bring up what I call the limestone issue of the time involved for deposition. We have vast regions of shallow ocean environments like the Bahamas and the Great Barrier Reefs. We can see limestone formation and coral reefs in real time and the environment and processes involved. There are parallel limestone formations in the geologic column around the world, many hundreds of feet thick, that are exactly like the existing limestone and reef limestone formations being formed today.

                        How can these formations be explained if the earth and our universe is only~6,000 to 10,000 years old?
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 12-30-2014, 09:32 AM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          I don't think that the evidence indicating that the earth is older than 6000 years shows that God is a liar but rather is indicative that the idea that the idea that the earth is only a few thousand years old is in error.
                          It would be indicative of a lie if the ~6,000 to ~10,000 year account in Genesis is true. Creating the existence of age and evolution as is at the time of Creation would be a lie. What would be the purpose? Job's test of faith?
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Any one like to criticize http://www.icr.org/article/experiments-stratification/
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                              It would be indicative of a lie if the ~6,000 to ~10,000 year account in Genesis is true. Creating the existence of age and evolution as is at the time of Creation would be a lie. What would be the purpose? Job's test of faith?
                              If a lie, then do to misinterpretation of the evidence. One way or the other. One fix would be when very old ages are indicated, the articles need to explain why it is understood to be so. As in the 150,000 year [post flood, I believe] lake bed strata.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                                Sure will. What does this article have to do with the transgression-regression sequences of the Pennsylvanian cyclothems?

                                K54

                                P.S. Oh, and speaking of Original Horizontality, how does this article deal with unconformities and tilted strata as per Hutton's "ah ha!" moment of his observation of the Siccar Point outcopy in Jedburgh, Scotland? Definitely some history there. ICR got an explanation for the varying dips of the strata and the angular unconformity?

                                SiccarPoint_Unconformityannot.jpg
                                Last edited by klaus54; 01-04-2015, 07:10 PM.

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