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"I don't care if you landed a spacecraft on a comet, your shirt is sexist"

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  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    I wasn't making an argument so your strawman comment doesn't make sense. I was stating an opinion. Rather that focus on real issues of equality between genders, they choose to focus on clothing.
    Alright, not a strawman, but I do think you mischaracterized them.

    I think the clothing is a fair issue. If you believe, as they do (and I tend to agree as well) that there's a problem with how women are treated in the science and engineering departments, then its fair to point to the symptoms of that problem. And an engineer sitting in a sexist t-shirt on open screen, and not reprimanded by his superiors is a problem worth pointing out.

    The last thing NASA wants to tell young women with engineering asperitations is:

    "Yup, we're pretty much as bad as you fear us to be. You'll not have a good experience here, or be respected for your abilities, and we won't reprimand people who mistreat you or do anything to accomodate you. However if you complain, get ready to be called hysterical and overreacting. That male geek is more important than you."

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    • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
      Alright, not a strawman, but I do think you mischaracterized them.

      I think the clothing is a fair issue. If you believe, as they do (and I tend to agree as well) that there's a problem with how women are treated in the science and engineering departments, then its fair to point to the symptoms of that problem. And an engineer sitting in a sexist t-shirt on open screen, and not reprimanded by his superiors is a problem worth pointing out.

      The last thing NASA wants to tell young women with engineering asperitations is:

      "Yup, we're pretty much as bad as you fear us to be. You'll not have a good experience here, or be respected for your abilities, and we won't reprimand people who mistreat you or do anything to accomodate you. However if you complain, get ready to be called hysterical and overreacting. That male geek is more important than you."
      It depends on the dress code at his job.

      I can imagine a woman scientist wearing a revealing lowcut top or even a t-shirt with Chipndale dancers on it, some man making a comment about her clothes, and the feminists coming out in droves saying it is none of a man's business what a woman wears and that it is sexist of him to even comment on it.

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      • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
        \your assumption that "observation" alone as being adequate is simply untrue.
        I never said that observation alone was adequate, just that it's not worthless. But this is getting into semantics at this point, so whatever.

        The conclusion is that STEM stereotypes between the sexes do not begin to form and take hold until after middle school. They become more prominent during high school years. Before that, the research shows there is no difference in spatial-ability. So, expecting a boy to play with a chemistry set and a girl to play with a barbie doll has no effect on the early years of development. Their ultimate choices do not take hold until much later.
        Ah. It's now my turn to apologize for not having been more clear earlier. What I believe is that cultural sexism is an ongoing phenomenon that notably begins at childhood and continues throughout people's lives. I focused on the toy example earlier because that was what seemed to be one of the more clear-cut cases I could recall off the top of my head, but I don't believe that it's purely limited to that. Sorry for sending that impression.

        I don't think anyone would argue that Singapore or Indonesia has less "cultural sexism" than we do. But their females excel in STEM far above their males. And this is what you would expect to find if early gender stereotypes have no real effect on the outcome of what males and females decide to choose as careers. So that means other factors are much more important.
        Actually, there is a sense in which I'd like to argue that point. Culturally, Singapore and Indonesia value and stress mathematical proficiency (and academic success in general) to a greater extent than Western nations like America tend to do. It's part of the backdrop of Asian culture in general, and partly explains why Asian students tend to achieve better mathematical scores than white students. So while people in Singapore and Indonesia can certainly be sexist, they don't discriminate along between the sexes when it comes to mathematics--their culture entails the belief that all people can and even ought to excel at it. Not so much in the US, where mathematics is often perceived by many people as an obscure and difficult subject that only exceptionally intelligent and strong people can truly master.

        How would I know? I have no idea what the dress code of the ESA is and neither do you. Considering women by and large do not wear that type of attire in or out of professional settings, I don't see how that matters. I guess if you think it is wrong for the guy to dress casually like a guy does, then yeah you would see a problem.
        There are multiple ways to dress casually without resorting to highly questionable depictions of scantily-clad women.

        Oh I see. So we are suppose to just ignore how often you said you didn't know what I was referring too when I said "feminist politics". But of course, you did know what I was talking about. Trying deflection doesn't make it look any better you know.
        No, I ultimately ended up just venturing a guess as to what you were referring to.

        No, I am not looking for generic evidence. I am looking for specific evidence of what she said. You nor her have any proof of rampant sexism in STEM. You gotta get over this.
        Please, what exactly are you arguing for? Now you're talking about STEM rather than the ESA specifically? The personal reports from women in STEM fields, which I already mentioned, [i]do[/] qualify as proof of sexism in STEM. I'm not sure how I can make this any clearer.

        Okay I'll bite. Why didn't you bring up the factors of biology, environment, skill, etc. to this debate where they would've been extremely pertinent to this discussion of gender roles and stereotypes?
        In retrospect I guess I should've made things more clear and thorough, but I'd already reasoned that they ultimately weren't more significant and I planned to simply address them when and if they were raised.

        Already answered. I have no idea how significant any of the factors are. I would lean more toward the other factors I mentioned previously because that is where the scientific data is pointing to. Again, YOU are the only one giving a weighted measure of which factor is ultimately important by pointing out "cultural sexism" and only that.
        Let me conclude with this, then. Even if I am wrong about the significance of cultural sexism, can we at least agree that women shouldn't be outright discouraged from pursuing education and careers in the field?
        Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

        I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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        • Originally posted by square_peg
          I never said that observation alone was adequate, just that it's not worthless. But this is getting into semantics at this point, so whatever.
          Well we both agree that observations are not worthless. Though I don't think I ever said that they were.

          Originally posted by square_peg
          Ah. It's now my turn to apologize for not having been more clear earlier. What I believe is that cultural sexism is an ongoing phenomenon that notably begins at childhood and continues throughout people's lives. I focused on the toy example earlier because that was what seemed to be one of the more clear-cut cases I could recall off the top of my head, but I don't believe that it's purely limited to that. Sorry for sending that impression.
          No need to apologize, square_peg. It's really all good . I am having a hard time thinking of any other cases that are brought up as examples of reinforcing gender roles than the one you pointed out. It would be the most important one if you believe that would be a child's first contact with such things.

          Originally posted by square_peg
          Actually, there is a sense in which I'd like to argue that point. Culturally, Singapore and Indonesia value and stress mathematical proficiency (and academic success in general) to a greater extent than Western nations like America tend to do. It's part of the backdrop of Asian culture in general, and partly explains why Asian students tend to achieve better mathematical scores than white students. So while people in Singapore and Indonesia can certainly be sexist, they don't discriminate along between the sexes when it comes to mathematics--their culture entails the belief that all people can and even ought to excel at it. Not so much in the US, where mathematics is often perceived by many people as an obscure and difficult subject that only exceptionally intelligent and strong people can truly master.
          Your argument would be correct if STEM only dealt with mathematics. Females are beating males in most all aspects of the sciences. As a whole you are correct. Asian countries stress high academic achievement among it's population because it is a Honor/Shame culture. However, Iceland is not. And yet females also excel above males. My point here is that stereotypes seem to be over emphasized when these discussions take place. Other factors seem to be more important than stereotype reinforcement.

          Even if these stereotypes were the most important, they are so dependent on cultures and environments that it would be hard to make any correlation.

          Originally posted by square_peg
          There are multiple ways to dress casually without resorting to highly questionable depictions of scantily-clad women.
          Very true. But his choice of wearing something you might not like does not show a culture of sexism. And it certainly doesn't show a culture of sexism with his employer.

          Originally posted by square_peg
          Please, what exactly are you arguing for? Now you're talking about STEM rather than the ESA specifically? The personal reports from women in STEM fields, which I already mentioned, [i]do[/] qualify as proof of sexism in STEM. I'm not sure how I can make this any clearer.
          I am arguing for proof that she must have. She saw a shirt she didn't approve of, then went on a rant of how this shows sexism in STEM generally and sexism in the ESA specifically. I am asking for proof of these things. Your link, if true, shows sexism at their place of work. Not a culture of sexism in an entire industry. These are blanket statements that are not supported by evidence.

          But I would expect nothing less than generalizations from someone who would troll a scientist on the day of a major accomplishment of his.

          Originally posted by square_peg
          In retrospect I guess I should've made things more clear and thorough, but I'd already reasoned that they ultimately weren't more significant and I planned to simply address them when and if they were raised.
          It's not a problem. I was a bit confused as to why they were being ignored. But as you said, you weren't ignoring them. So that is my fault. Sorry about that.

          Originally posted by square_peg
          Let me conclude with this, then. Even if I am wrong about the significance of cultural sexism, can we at least agree that women shouldn't be outright discouraged from pursuing education and careers in the field?
          No. Of course no one should be discouraged from pursuing a career they have talents and passion for. Your link however, is about the same study that Sam brought up. Again, both male and female faculty at those universities chose male over females students. We have no idea why that is. But it would be premature to jump on sexism as the cause.
          "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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