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Are YECs ignorant, dumb, or stupid?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
    Oh, I thought Tassy and CP were discussing some horrible act of Christians indoctrinating children regarding biological or any other kind of evolution. And we obviously have some evil plan to purposely mislead and foment ignorance and stupidity and, what is that other word -- dumbness, I guess, in future generations!
    I didn't see anyone suggest there was an evil plan, but rather that trying to teach children things that aren't true is dangerous.

    This entire thread is nothing BUT those who think they are wise in their own eyes, who refuse to see God in everything that is around them, who have NO excuse for ignoring God
    The thread starter, klaus54, is a Christian, so I'd say it's a bit odd to accuse the thread of being nothing but those who refuse to see God and are ignoring God.

    calling us, and that includes ME, ignorant, dumb, and stupid because we believe God created everything.
    Technically, he was asking if people like you were ignorant, dumb OR stupid.

    But in all seriousness, yes, he was unnecessarily rude. Shame on him.

    Obviously when you can't convince a YEC they are wrong, you simply resort to name calling.
    Many people simply give up and ignore them.
    Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

    I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

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    • #32
      Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      Interesting points. I suppose if the primary aim of the church was to present the most credible or intellectually defensible formulation of the Christian faith, we should excommunicate YECs and all others whose beliefs detract from this mission. But our mission is not purely or even primarily intellectual. We let pretty much anyone in who wants to be a member of the community. Hopefully there are some who can take up the intellectual mission some success, theologians or apologists, I suppose. I would hope that you would not judge the value of Christian faith merely on the basis of some who have premodern, unscientific, or anti-scientific views.
      Is there a place in the community for Christians who deny the divinity of Jesus?

      This seems to me a lesser variance from the spiritual truths of Christianity than the YEC variance from the facts of creation, yet of the same species. We are as sure of our evolution from common ancestors over billions of years as we are that the brains of the dead begin to degrade almost immediately and that there is no exterior reservoir for our personalities from which a revived corpse could reintegrate itself as the person it once was.

      I consider belief in the resurrection to be premodern, unscientific, or anti-scientific as well.

      Nor is the above question rhetorical. I would support a place in the community for such Christians, and would be numbered among them.

      There is value in Christianity distinct from its unwieldy and unlikely claims to eternal life. It has value apart from the resurrection, apart from a divine progenitor, and apart from the existence of God or gods. It endorses curing the sick, feeding the hungry, forgiving one's enemies, comforting the bereaved, and working together toward goals greater than any one of us. What's not to like? All of those are good things, even if we don't get to live forever, and even if Jesus never rose from the dead because he was just another human. I know Paul's opinion on that, but he was a human, too.

      But since he was a Christian as well, I'll forgive him. I wouldn't want Sam to accuse me of a sinful lack of charity.

      And in any case, I've still got cookies.

      As ever, Jesse

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      • #33
        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
        I do not care what any of you call me.
        So long as it's not Moosy.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
          Is there a place in the community for Christians who deny the divinity of Jesus?
          No more than there is a place among scientists for those who deny the utility of the scientific method. Neither is at issue in the YEC/materialist conflict, this is mostly politics by other means.

          This seems to me a lesser variance from the spiritual truths of Christianity than the YEC variance from the facts of creation, yet of the same species. We are as sure of our evolution from common ancestors over billions of years as we are that the brains of the dead begin to degrade almost immediately and that there is no exterior reservoir for our personalities from which a revived corpse could reintegrate itself as the person it once was.
          You seem rather dogmatic on the presumption that these things will be discovered within the brain and have always been held as being in the brain. If you have that degree of ahistorical strawmanning in your perception of general beliefs, on how rigorous a set of discoveries have you really based your other theories on origins?

          I consider belief in the resurrection to be premodern, unscientific, or anti-scientific as well.
          I consider dismissal of the supernatural as postmodern, presumptuous, and indicative of a lack of actual academic rigor or interest in increasing one's knowledge about the world.

          Nor is the above question rhetorical. I would support a place in the community for such Christians, and would be numbered among them.
          They're called Unitarian Universalists, and their services are about as lively as you'd expect among a 'believe in nothing uncomfortable or out-of-the-way' crowd.

          There is value in Christianity distinct from its unwieldy and unlikely claims to eternal life. It has value apart from the resurrection, apart from a divine progenitor, and apart from the existence of God or gods. It endorses curing the sick, feeding the hungry, forgiving one's enemies, comforting the bereaved, and working together toward goals greater than any one of us. What's not to like? All of those are good things, even if we don't get to live forever, and even if Jesus never rose from the dead because he was just another human. I know Paul's opinion on that, but he was a human, too.
          He was also smarter and more well-traveled than urban provincialists like you, and would speak very clearly of the childish and immature desire to keep the easy and popular parts without thinking about the difficult and unpopular parts, whether in Scripture, a Constitution, or even a scientific field of study. "He was human, too" is the inevitable handwave of the equalitarian.

          But since he was a Christian as well, I'll forgive him. I wouldn't want Sam to accuse me of a sinful lack of charity.
          Neither the hate nor the forgiveness of those who willfully blind themselves to the truth is worth much on a personal or professional level. Such courtesies and acknowledgments were established among serious people who paid serious attention to the words by which they lived their lives.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
            Certainly they are often "nice people". But they nevertheless inculcate innocent young minds with their ignorance and this is unforgivable.
            Unforgivable? Absolute poppycock.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Do you think that YECs are purposely misleading people? Do you think there's a possibility they may actually believe what they're "promoting"?
              The vast majority, nearly all of the rank and file, fall into the latter category. But I think that there is a significant portion (I don't know if I would go with a majority) of the leadership that are attempting to mislead.

              These folks have repeatedly had the evidence presented to them and their claims terminally rebutted but continue disseminating misinformation.

              Take for instance the late Duane Gish, a prominent debater for several decades among YECs. Among other things Gish was quite notorious for admitting that something he said in a debate was erroneous if presented significant evidence. The problem was that at his very next debate, in front of an audience who had not heard his admission, he would make the very same claim that he just acknowledged was incorrect. That by any measure is being purposely misleading.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                Oh, I thought Tassy and CP were discussing some horrible act of Christians indoctrinating children regarding biological or any other kind of evolution. And we obviously have some evil plan to purposely mislead and foment ignorance and stupidity and, what is that other word -- dumbness, I guess, in future generations!

                So, it seems to me you can hardly separate the two topics as you appear to want to.

                This entire thread is nothing BUT those who think they are wise in their own eyes, who refuse to see God in everything that is around them, who have NO excuse for ignoring God, calling us, and that includes ME, ignorant, dumb, and stupid because we believe God created everything.

                You know that this is what this thread is about, and you can toss in all the different definitions of evolution you want to, but it doesn't change a thing.

                Obviously when you can't convince a YEC they are wrong, you simply resort to name calling.

                How sad.
                To reiterate Sam’s timely paraphrase of Upton Sinclair: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his religious belief depends on his not understanding it." You cannot be convinced that YEC is wrong, not because of the overwhelming evidence indicating that it is wrong, but because your all-important religious faith prevents you from acknowledging this fact. This is what’s “sad”.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                  Acceptable, no. Unforgivable? Who am I to claim that someone else is unforgivable? I will leave that to God in his infinite mercy.
                  Christianity doesn't teach that God's mercy is infinite.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                    And at the risk of double posting, I am going to add this:

                    I do not care what any of you call me. I do not care what any of you think of me. I only care what God thinks of me. And He thinks I am a sinner redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ, and I am His child.

                    Nothing else matters.
                    If that were true, you wouldn't be trying to impress Him so hard with your dopey quote mining.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by square_peg View Post
                      Once again, this is about biological evolution, not the existence of God. The two are separate, independent topics.
                      Clearly, Mossy doesn't want to believe in the God that actually exists--the one that created evolution. She'd rather believe in the cartoon God that hates evolution.

                      Is there anything funnier than that?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                        Is there a place in the community for Christians who deny the divinity of Jesus?
                        Of course. Some pastors or priests may not want to admit this but I think there are lots of people in the pews that are in this category.

                        Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                        This seems to me a lesser variance from the spiritual truths of Christianity than the YEC variance from the facts of creation, yet of the same species. We are as sure of our evolution from common ancestors over billions of years as we are that the brains of the dead begin to degrade almost immediately and that there is no exterior reservoir for our personalities from which a revived corpse could reintegrate itself as the person it once was.

                        I consider belief in the resurrection to be premodern, unscientific, or anti-scientific as well.
                        Lots of Christians do not believe in a physical resurrection of Jesus, 'though they may not be acknowledged as Christians by some, in other churches this is not controversial.

                        Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                        Nor is the above question rhetorical. I would support a place in the community for such Christians, and would be numbered among them.

                        There is value in Christianity distinct from its unwieldy and unlikely claims to eternal life. It has value apart from the resurrection, apart from a divine progenitor, and apart from the existence of God or gods. It endorses curing the sick, feeding the hungry, forgiving one's enemies, comforting the bereaved, and working together toward goals greater than any one of us. What's not to like? All of those are good things, even if we don't get to live forever, and even if Jesus never rose from the dead because he was just another human. I know Paul's opinion on that, but he was a human, too.

                        But since he was a Christian as well, I'll forgive him. I wouldn't want Sam to accuse me of a sinful lack of charity.

                        And in any case, I've still got cookies.

                        As ever, Jesse
                        But you need milk too. I keep trying to tell you that and you don't seem to get it.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by whag View Post
                          Christianity doesn't teach that God's mercy is infinite.
                          Some Christians certainly do. Those who do not, do not see this as God's mercy not being infinite but rather as God's respect for the freedom of others.
                          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            YEC’s have no excuse for ignorance. The facts, which are beyond any reasonable doubt, are there for all to see.
                            Assuming for the sake of argument that's true, does it make you feel better to hate them?
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by whag View Post
                              Christianity doesn't teach that God's mercy is infinite.
                              Fortunately, Christianity doesn't teach that God's mercy is in short supply.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                                Is there a place in the community for Christians who deny the divinity of Jesus?
                                There are a range of non-Trinitarian churches that vary in their view of Divinity of Jesus. The extreme is the more humanist Unitarian Universalists that in general, but not by Doctrine reject the Divinity of Jesus. It takes some research to look at the beliefs of each church on what they consider the nature of Jesus and the relationship between Jesus and God. There is plenty of variation to shoe shop for the ones that fit.

                                The Baha'i Faith considers Jesus a Messiah, but not the Divine incarnate God, nor believes in the traditional doctrine of the Trinity.

                                This seems to me a lesser variance from the spiritual truths of Christianity than the YEC variance from the facts of creation, yet of the same species. We are as sure of our evolution from common ancestors over billions of years as we are that the brains of the dead begin to degrade almost immediately and that there is no exterior reservoir for our personalities from which a revived corpse could reintegrate itself as the person it once was.
                                The problem of the harmony of science and religion. nature of claimed miracles varies sometimes in subtle ways between churches. Besides the fact that 50% or more Christians (YEC) in the USA outright deny totally evolution and the nature of our physical existence billions of years old, there are many Christians, Jews, and Muslims who conditional accept the science of evolution and earth history to justify their own theological world view.

                                I consider belief in the resurrection to be premodern, unscientific, or anti-scientific as well.
                                Not surprisng from a strict materialist perspective.

                                Nor is the above question rhetorical. I would support a place in the community for such Christians, and would be numbered among them.
                                Unitarian Universalists work in this case.

                                There is value in Christianity distinct from its unwieldy and unlikely claims to eternal life. It has value apart from the resurrection, apart from a divine progenitor, and apart from the existence of God or gods. It endorses curing the sick, feeding the hungry, forgiving one's enemies, comforting the bereaved, and working together toward goals greater than any one of us. What's not to like? All of those are good things, even if we don't get to live forever, and even if Jesus never rose from the dead because he was just another human. I know Paul's opinion on that, but he was a human, too.
                                There is likewise value in most religions in varying degrees. As far as religion that is still theist, the Baha'i Faith does recognize science unconditionally as the authority for understanding the evolving knowledge of our physical existence, and embraces the spiritual compassion of a universal need of caring for our fellow humans. Actually from the humanist perspective I cannot fault the UUs in this compassion for humanity.
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 11-16-2014, 07:54 AM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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