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Not The Higgs After All?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
    Wait, not atheists, let's not generalise. Two guys.
    And Shuny is not an atheist.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
      Sorry. Your use of the term 'pet theories' led me to infer this. My apologies.
      A fairly reasonable jump, which may not have been on the mark.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #18
        Back to the OP. Do we really need to let this thread go?
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          It seems that there's a natural law that states that whenever someone opens a thread in the NatSci forum about any science topic, atheists here will eventually make it about evolution vs creationism.
          This is a theology web site, not a science web site. The clue is in the name. Why would you imagine people would not bring theology into a thread?

          Shuny has made the assumption that Seer started this thread for theological reasons, specifically to undermine science (haha, look the stupid scientists got it wrong again), and by implication evolution, and thus promote creationism.

          Hopefully Seer will tell us if he sees this as evidence of science doing what science does best; that is, being open to alternative ideas, being tentative, being self-correcting. Of course if Shuny is right, then Seer sees it as evidence of science failing, and Seer will not want to say this is a good example of science doing well. We can wait and see.
          My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/

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          • #20
            If it turns out that the Higgs is not the particle they though it was it is a terrible shame for Peter Higgs and the Swedish Academy. Physics will carry on as usual “peeling the onion”.

            "for the theoretical discovery of a mechanism that contributes to our understanding of the origin of mass of subatomic particles, and which recently was confirmed through the discovery of the predicted fundamental particle, by the ATLAS and CMS experiments at CERN’s Large Hadron Collider"
            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
            “not all there” - you know who you are

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
              And Shuny is not an atheist.
              According to some, if you cannot name your god, you are atheist.
              “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
              “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
              “not all there” - you know who you are

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                Back to the OP. Do we really need to let this thread go?
                Quite right. By the way, beware of the word particles. It tends to make us think of tiny little balls of stuff – and that is just wrong. Waveicles was better but it didn’t catch on.

                http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/...ish-from-sight

                “Conversely, when two perfectly out-of-phase solitons collide, the atoms momentarily vanish before reappearing again on either side of the collision point.”

                You didn’t expect that, did you?
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  According to some, if you cannot name your god, you are atheist.
                  Sounds more like a form of agnostic theism to me.
                  "When the Western world accepted Christianity, Caesar conquered; and the received text of Western theology was edited by his lawyers…. The brief Galilean vision of humility flickered throughout the ages, uncertainly…. But the deeper idolatry, of the fashioning of God in the image of the Egyptian, Persian, and Roman imperial rulers, was retained. The Church gave unto God the attributes which belonged exclusively to Caesar."

                  — Alfred North Whitehead

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
                    No, you said 'atheists here'.
                    I also never said all atheists here.

                    If I wanted to imply that (if we're to be pedantic about it) I'd have said 'the atheists here' rather than 'atheists here'. The former implies that all atheists here participated in it, which evidently is false, the other simple said that atheists on this forum did it. Which is true, neh?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                      If it turns out that the Higgs is not the particle they though it was it is a terrible shame for Peter Higgs and the Swedish Academy. Physics will carry on as usual “peeling the onion”.

                      "for the theoretical discovery of a mechanism that contributes to our understanding of the origin of mass of subatomic particles, and which recently was confirmed through the discovery of the predicted fundamental particle, by the ATLAS and CMS experiments at CERN’s Large Hadron Collider"
                      Think there's enough data from the LHC to determine this or will it first be when we have the International Linear Collider that we'll get a better estimation of the case?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                        Think there's enough data from the LHC to determine this or will it first be when we have the International Linear Collider that we'll get a better estimation of the case?
                        No idea. I think the LHC is to be working at higher energies in 2015 and with any luck they will eventually accumulate enough data to give the theoreticians something definite to work on. At Higgs discovery time there were some theorists who were looking for signs of super-symmetry that were surprised at where the Higgs seemed to be, at about 125GeV.
                        “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                        “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                        “not all there” - you know who you are

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                          As for the Higgs, yes, this is why we need to build the International Linear Colider to determine whether or not the particle has any spin (to be the Higgs particle its spin must be equal to zero), and do a more fine-grained investigation of its properties.
                          What are your thoughts about the problem of building larger colliders from this interview with physicist George Ellis this last July in Scientific American?

                          Source: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2014/07/22/physicist-george-ellis-knocks-physicists-for-knocking-philosophy-free-will/



                          Horgan: At the conference where we met, Howthelightsgetsin, you were in a session called “The end of experiment.” What was that about?

                          Ellis: Well this was just echoing what you have already said: many of the possible high-energy physics experiments and astronomy observations relevant to cosmology are now in essence nearly complete. Physics experiments are approaching the highest energies it will ever be possible to test by any collider experiment, both for financial and technical reasons. We can’t build a collider bigger than the surface of the Earth. Thus our ability to test high energy physics – and hence structures on the smallest physical scales – is approaching its limits. Astronomical observations at all wavelengths are now probing the most distant cosmological events that will ever be “seeable” by any kinds of radiation whatever, because of visual horizons for each form of radiation.

                          It’s rather like the situation as regards exploring the Earth: once upon a time we had only fragmentary knowledge of what is there. Then we obtained a global picture of the Earth’s surface, including detailed satellite images of the entire land mass. Once you have seen it all, you have seen it all; apart from finer and finer details, there is nothing more to find. You might respond, But we can’t see to the bottom of the oceans. However, we do indeed now have quite good maps of the ocean floor too, through various sounding techniques. This is similar to the way we have seen right back to the last scattering surface in the early universe at a redshift of 1200 (the analogue of seeing the entire surface of the Earth from space) with satellites such as COBE, WMAP, and Planck, and also (indirectly) to the time of emission of gravitational waves by Bicep2 (the analogue of seeing to the bottom of the ocean). We’ll sort out that controversy in the next couple of years.

                          So what we can see at the largest and smallest scales is approaching what will ever be possible, except for refining the details.

                          © Copyright Original Source

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            What are your thoughts about the problem of building larger colliders from this interview with physicist George Ellis this last July in Scientific American?

                            Source: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2014/07/22/physicist-george-ellis-knocks-physicists-for-knocking-philosophy-free-will/



                            Horgan: At the conference where we met, Howthelightsgetsin, you were in a session called “The end of experiment.” What was that about?

                            Ellis: Well this was just echoing what you have already said: many of the possible high-energy physics experiments and astronomy observations relevant to cosmology are now in essence nearly complete. Physics experiments are approaching the highest energies it will ever be possible to test by any collider experiment, both for financial and technical reasons. We can’t build a collider bigger than the surface of the Earth. Thus our ability to test high energy physics – and hence structures on the smallest physical scales – is approaching its limits. Astronomical observations at all wavelengths are now probing the most distant cosmological events that will ever be “seeable” by any kinds of radiation whatever, because of visual horizons for each form of radiation.

                            It’s rather like the situation as regards exploring the Earth: once upon a time we had only fragmentary knowledge of what is there. Then we obtained a global picture of the Earth’s surface, including detailed satellite images of the entire land mass. Once you have seen it all, you have seen it all; apart from finer and finer details, there is nothing more to find. You might respond, But we can’t see to the bottom of the oceans. However, we do indeed now have quite good maps of the ocean floor too, through various sounding techniques. This is similar to the way we have seen right back to the last scattering surface in the early universe at a redshift of 1200 (the analogue of seeing the entire surface of the Earth from space) with satellites such as COBE, WMAP, and Planck, and also (indirectly) to the time of emission of gravitational waves by Bicep2 (the analogue of seeing to the bottom of the ocean). We’ll sort out that controversy in the next couple of years.

                            So what we can see at the largest and smallest scales is approaching what will ever be possible, except for refining the details.

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            Ellis is correct that there is a limit to the energies of man-made colliders. But this doesn't mean the end of experimental particle physics.
                            1) The field of particle astrophysics is young and holds a lot of promise. (Particle astrophysics relies on cosmic processes to accelerate particles much higher than we could ever do on earth.)
                            2) Even if ever-higher energies cannot be reached, there is some benefit to building new accelerators with ever-higher intensities. This allows characterizing very rare events. In planning for new accelerators, the US has conceded the "energy frontier" to Europe (and Japan, if they ever build the ILC), and is focusing on the "intensity frontier".
                            "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                              Still looking for rabbits in Precambrian rocks, and trying to poke holes in the science which you do not believe in. Seer, it's the pokey game, every time you try to knock one down another ten pop up.
                              LOL, I just get to live in your head rent free!
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                                According to some, if you cannot name your god, you are atheist.
                                According to some, Ebola is a rock group, the London Underground is a resistance movement, and exposure to carbon tetrafluoride causes pregnancy.

                                Roy
                                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                                MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                                MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                                seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...

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