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How does Benjamin Libet's experiments provide evidence against Free will?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by David Hayward View Post
    The second half has more meat: Shermer quotes (the fellow rabid New Atheist, I note) Victor Stenger's claim that he has demonstrated "that for a system to be described quantum-mechanically the <product of the> system's typical mass, speed and distance must be on the order of Planck's constant", and that in the case of the brain connections this quantity is one thousand times too large for quantum effects to be influential. If you look at the interesting discussion at Appendix A (Page 17) in the paper "Quantum physics in neuroscience and psychology: a neurophysical model of mind–brain interaction" you will see that Max Tegmark calculates it as 10^12 times too large, so Shermer's/Stenger's 10^3 figure is actually quite generous. But I would caution that until only recently everyone would have been adamant that quantum effects could play no part in photosynthesis, so perhaps the idea that quantum effects cannot play a part in the brain is similarly a misconception; also, that quantum mechanics is, for all its much-vaunted accuracy and confirmation, not fully understood, and that Lawrence Krauss says, "...quantum theory predicts this <dark> energy is some 120 orders of magnitude greater than that calculated by cosmological observations. The energy of empty space should be roughly a gazillion times the energy of everything we see. That is the worst prediction in physics." Compared to a mis-prediction of quantum effects of 10^120 in cosmology, a mis-prediction of quantum effects of 10^3 or 10^12 in neuroscience looks like peanuts.

    David
    This looks like very good evidence for the possibility of quantum mind theory.
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
      This looks like very good evidence for the possibility of quantum mind theory.
      It does indeed, and looking down the links at the bottom I find a series of linked pdf articles and much further discussion further down again which looks very interesting.*

      (I'm a bit suspicious when I see Deepak Chopra's name on one of the pdfs, but I suppose even a whacko can comment on a serious subject.)

      * And I note in passing it states Tegmark got his calculations wrong.
      Last edited by David Hayward; 01-31-2014, 02:49 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
        This looks like very good evidence for the possibility of quantum mind theory.
        I have looked into this like David. What I found is this is a miss use of 'Quantum Mechanics.' Quantum Mechanics reflects the behavior of the energy/matter relationships of the basic particles of matter, and such things as 'dark matter and dark energy.' Also the calculations are questionable. In contrast, our brain (neurophysical interaction between the brain and the mind) and computers, are in the macro world. The problem of comparing the brain and computers, is that they function quite differently. The present computers are basically too simplistic to ever achieve the ability of the human brain The Turing question, will most likely never be resolved until computers can be developed that are based on the more complex and natural basis of the function of the brain. There is at present research on going that is attempting to develop computers more in line with how the human brain functions.
        Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-01-2014, 07:30 AM.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
          This looks like very good evidence for the possibility of quantum mind theory.
          I do not believe the evidence supports this. See my previous post. First the math is very questionable, second it is like comparing cars and stars, and third, questionable references.
          Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-01-2014, 07:32 AM.
          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment

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