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The problem with Black Holes

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  • The problem with Black Holes

    Many think that the existence of Black Holes is proven and it is a matter of fact that they exist. This was especially true after evidence was found to confirm Hawking's predictions that something we call Black Holes exist. The problem is the existence of Black Holes is from indirect evidence and supported by falsified models and theorems, but new research questions whether Black Holes as we describe them exist at all. I believe there is a little hyperbole in the article below, but It demonstrates some of the weaknesses in drawing factual assumptions of the nature of our physical existence based on indirect evidence. In conclusion, I believe something exists that we describe as Black Holes, but what we define as Black Holes may not exist. Warning: The following are math models based on assumptions, and not proof of the non-existence of Black Holes.

    Source: http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2014/09/black-holes-can-never-come-into-being-new-theory-forces-scientists-to-rethink-big-bang-and-whether-i.html



    Experimental evidence may one day provide physical proof as to whether or not black holes exist in the universe. But for now, theorectical physicist Laura Mersini-Houghton at the University of North Carolina says the mathematics are conclusive: they don’t exist. By merging two seemingly conflicting theories, Mersini-Houghton, has proven, mathematically, that black holes can never come into being in the first place. The work not only forces scientists to reimagine the fabric of space-time, but also rethink the origins of the universe.

    Many physicists and astronomers believe that our universe originated from a singularity that began expanding with the Big Bang. However, if singularities do not exist, then physicists have to rethink their ideas of the Big Bang and whether it ever happened.

    “I’m still not over the shock,” said Mersini-Houghton. “We’ve been studying this problem for a more than 50 years and this solution gives us a lot to think about.”

    For decades, black holes were thought to form when a massive star collapses under its own gravity to a single point in space – imagine the Earth being squished into a ball the size of a peanut – called a singularity. So the story went, an invisible membrane known as the event horizon surrounds the singularity and crossing this horizon means that you could never cross back. It’s the point where a black hole’s gravitational pull is so strong that nothing can escape it.

    The reason black holes are so bizarre is that it pits two fundamental theories of the universe against each other. Einstein’s theory of gravity predicts the formation of black holes but a fundamental law of quantum theory states that no information from the universe can ever disappear. Efforts to combine these two theories lead to mathematical nonsense, and became known as the information loss paradox.

    In 1974, Stephen Hawking used quantum mechanics to show that black holes emit radiation. Since then, scientists have detected fingerprints in the cosmos that are consistent with this radiation, identifying an ever-increasing list of the universe’s black holes.

    But now Mersini-Houghton describes an entirely new scenario. She and Hawking both agree that as a star collapses under its own gravity, it produces Hawking radiation. However, in her new work, Mersini-Houghton shows that by giving off this radiation, the star also sheds mass. So much so that as it shrinks it no longer has the density to become a black hole.

    © Copyright Original Source

    Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-25-2014, 08:47 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  • #2

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    • #3
      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
      Many think that the existence of Black Holes is proven and it is a matter of fact that they exist. This was especially true after evidence was found to confirm Hawking's predictions that something we call Black Holes exist. The problem is the existence of Black Holes is from indirect evidence and supported by falsified models and theorems, but new research questions whether Black Holes as we describe them exist at all. I believe there is a little hyperbole in the article below, but It demonstrates some of the weaknesses in drawing factual assumptions of the nature of our physical existence based on indirect evidence. In conclusion, I believe something exists that we describe as Black Holes, but what we define as Black Holes may not exist. Warning: The following are math models based on assumptions, and not proof of the non-existence of Black Holes.
      Oh, it's fairly certain that there are astronomic entities that exist which have heretofore been referred to as "black holes" (and which, in all likelihood, will continue to retain that name). That is to say, supermassive and super-dense objects which produce exceptional gravitational fields certainly exist. This fact can be directly observed, thanks to gravitational lensing (one of the absolute coolest things in astronomy, in my humblest opinion).

      It seems that the open questions are as regards the nature and behavior of these objects.
      "[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
      --Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)

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      • #4
        I suppose the answer 'they suck' wasn't what you were looking for?



































        Okay, okay, back to lurking. It is an interesting article...

        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

        My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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        • #5
          I think Shuny is just being racist.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            I think Shuny is just being racist.
            Yeah, especially against 'White Holes.'
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View Post
              Oh, it's fairly certain that there are astronomic entities that exist which have heretofore been referred to as "black holes" (and which, in all likelihood, will continue to retain that name). That is to say, supermassive and super-dense objects which produce exceptional gravitational fields certainly exist. This fact can be directly observed, thanks to gravitational lensing (one of the absolute coolest things in astronomy, in my humblest opinion).

              It seems that the open questions are as regards the nature and behavior of these objects.
              True.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #8
                Singularities are always suspect. They merely represent a limit of our theoretical models and ultimately of our ability to understand. Newtonian physics also had a singularity that was a black hole of sorts.
                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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                • #9
                  Another article about Shunya's OP: http://phys.org/news/2014-09-black-holes.html

                  And to even out the discussion a rebuttal: https://briankoberlein.com/2014/09/2...a-black-holes/

                  (just providing informational links)
                  "If you can ever make any major religion look absolutely ludicrous, chances are you haven't understood it"
                  -Ravi Zacharias, The New Age: A foreign bird with a local walk

                  Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                  1 Corinthians 16:13

                  "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                  -Ben Witherington III

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                    Another article about Shunya's OP: http://phys.org/news/2014-09-black-holes.html

                    And to even out the discussion a rebuttal: https://briankoberlein.com/2014/09/2...a-black-holes/

                    (just providing informational links)
                    Good articles! My OP was informational only, and not a proposal that Black Holes do not exist.
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                      Good articles! My OP was informational only, and not a proposal that Black Holes do not exist.
                      There was the one at Calcutta, but I think the British pulled it apart a long time ago. :)

                      Neat article. This kind of stuff is great fun, even though I don't understand the details. Good luck to the lass.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        there is an interesting underlying point to this thread. It concerns what is the nature of Theorems, models, and mathematical proofs involving the nature of the cosmos. There is an evolving positive direction to these 'concepts,' but nothing as concrete and specific as some would like to claim selectively citing the likes of Vilinken and other cosmologists to justify a religious agenda. These individual models do not prove anything. They often propose conflicting models and theorems. Over time some fail, some are modified based on new information.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Classical escape velocity. eV = sqr(2GM/r)

                          where mv^2/2 = GMm/r calculates where v = sqr(2GM/r)

                          If we use Einstein’s equation; ke = mc^2 (1/sqr(1 - (v/c)^2)) - 1)

                          We get mc^2 (1/sqr(1 - (v/c)^2)) - 1) = GMm/r

                          Which gives us v = sqr(c^2 - c^2 ( 1 / (1 + GM/(rc^2)))^2)

                          Which if rewritten becomes v = sqr(2GM/r + (GM/rc)^2)/(1 + GM/(rc^2))

                          So current gravitational theory writes sqr(1 - (v/c)^2) as sqr(1 - 2GM/(rc^2)) where there are black holes.
                          But if we make the above correction then sqr(1 - (v/c)^2) = 1 / (1 + GM/(rc^2)) and there are no black holes.
                          Last edited by 37818; 10-04-2014, 06:55 PM.
                          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

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