Holding their feet to the fire ...

[Truthseeker]

At least do some basic research before asking such ill-posed questions.
As resource assistance (all you'll need) I suggest the ICR, AiG and CMI websites.

Hey readers other than Jorge! Were my questions indeed ill-posed so that Jorge can use that as an excuse to not answer them? Should I reword them?

Jorge, as for doing basic research, I did do some reading of those websites. I still prefer Whitefield's research. I feel that he has really done the research necessary to understand correctly the Bible, Genesis in particular. Here's the link again http://www.creationingenesis.com/
if you want to try to refute any of his particular arguments.

[Jorge]

Jorge, as for doing basic research, I did do some reading of those websites. I still prefer Whitefield's research. I feel that he has really done the research necessary to understand correctly the Bible, Genesis in particular. Here's the link again http://www.creationingenesis.com/
if you want to try to refute any of his particular arguments.

I only have a few minutes so my comment will be brief. Even I (not a Hebrew scholar) am aware that yom is used over 2,000 times in the OT and whenever it is used in conjunction with a cardinal/ordinal number and/or with 'evening and morning' it always refers to a 24-hour day.

Certain "Christians" that practice distorting the Bible have claimed a counterexample to that rule. When they post their alleged "counterexample" it invariably fails. No place in the OT will you see "yom" with a cardinal/ordinal number PLUS "evening and morning" unless it is a 24-hour day.

Be my guest ... try to find an example that refutes that.

Of course, the deniers insist that "yom" cannot be a 24-hour day in Genesis 1-2. Why? Simple! Because the secular scientific establishment has told them so!

The more 'educated' among those deniers know well that there is no escaping the obvious and so they resort to mythologizing/allegorizing the parts of Genesis that get in their way or tossing out Genesis 1-11 altogether.

Feel free to pass that bit of data to Rodney Whitefield.

Jorge

[Roy]

I only have a few minutes so my comment will be brief. Even I (not a Hebrew scholar) am aware that yom is used over 2,000 times in the OT and whenever it is used in conjunction with a cardinal/ordinal number and/or with 'evening and morning' it always refers to a 24-hour day.

IIRC from previous discussions on this subject there is an example of yom being used with "evening and morning" where yom does not refer to a 24-hour day, and Jorge is fully aware of the fact. I can't be bothered to look it up because Jorge's claims are generally worthless anyway.

Roy

[rogue06]

IIRC from previous discussions on this subject there is an example of yom being used with "evening and morning" where yom does not refer to a 24-hour day, and Jorge is fully aware of the fact. I can't be bothered to look it up because Jorge's claims are generally worthless anyway.

Roy

Jorge is well aware that the made up "rule" has no basis in reality but it has never slowed him down from citing it. I guess he thinks that if he keeps repeating it enough times it will somehow make it true. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, Goebbels would be proud.

The entire "every time that 'yom' is associated with a number and/or with morning and evening, it refers to a literal day ("24 hours")" is a made up rule concocted in modern times being completely foreign to the ancient Hebrews (in fact AFAICT, Hebrew scholars do not recognize this fabricated rule).

Moreover as we can see in Zech. 14:7 is a false one. There “yom” is used with a number ("yom echad" -- usually translated "a unique day," but identical to "day one," "one day" or "the first day" of Genesis 1:5) AND with “evening.” Even AnswersinGenesis (AiG) recognizes this as an exception though they continue to teach the claptrap that you spouted above.

Zech. 14 describes "the Day of the Lord". This phrase is used throughout the Old Testament to refer to a future period of judgment at the Lord's return, not a literal 24-hour day. In the Zech. 14 context, it seems to include the Lord's judgment at His return to earth and also His subsequent Millennial reign (cf. Zech. 14:9). So according to context, this "Day of the Lord" is about a thousand years long (sort of bringing up what is mentioned in Psalm 90:4 and II Peter 3:8).

Another exception can be seen in Hosea 6:2 where we read that "after two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us." Hugh Ross states that "for centuries Bible commentators have noted that the "days" in this passage (where the ordinal is used) refer to a year, years, a thousand years, or maybe more." Ross seems to support the concept that it means a thousand years but most commentaries that I've read appear to indicate that it means a relatively short period of time. The point being that once again we have "yom" being used with a number and it does not mean literal days.

And yet another apparent exception to the rule made up by YECs appears to be found in I Samuel 9:20 when Samuel speaks to Saul about the donkeys that were lost "three days ago." It seems obvious that Samuel isn't meaning three days in the literal sense but as a way of saying "recently" or a "short time" since Saul had already searched the hill country of Ephraim, the land of Shalishah, the land of Shaalim, the land of Benjamin and finally the land of Zuph for the lost donkeys. So once again we have an instance where "yom" is associated with a number and it is not referring "to a literal day ("24 hours")."

Finally, in Isaiah 9:14 the expression "one day" or "single day" is exactly the same ("yom echad") in Hebrew as the one often translated as "the first day" in Genesis 1.5 and once again it is here not necessarily referring "to a literal day ("24 hours")" but rather is meant figuratively.

As an aside, even in the creation account itself the word "yom" is used to indicate more than a single day as can be seen in Gen. 2:4 where it is used to describe the entire creation process.

As an additional note wrt the reference to Psalm 90:4 (mentioned in the third paragraph) in the next two verses (Psalm 90:5-6), human lives are compared to grass. It states that the grass sprouts in the morning and withers in the evening. In fact grasses live longer than a single day before dying. Evening and morning in this example do not refer to a 24-hour period of time and are obviously used figuratively.

Additionally, a little further on in the same Psalm (v.14), there is a plea for God to satisfy us with His love in the morning so that we may sing all our days (a lifetime).

[Kbertsche]

I only have a few minutes so my comment will be brief. Even I (not a Hebrew scholar) am aware that yom is used over 2,000 times in the OT and whenever it is used in conjunction with a cardinal/ordinal number and/or with 'evening and morning' it always refers to a 24-hour day.

Certain "Christians" that practice distorting the Bible have claimed a counterexample to that rule. When they post their alleged "counterexample" it invariably fails. No place in the OT will you see "yom" with a cardinal/ordinal number PLUS "evening and morning" unless it is a 24-hour day.

Be my guest ... try to find an example that refutes that.

Jorge, what you say is blatantly false. You could easily learn this yourself if you had the sense to do a proper Hebrew word study.

Below are the examples that I have found by doing my own study. Note: For the examples below, it is best to check multiple translations. If not referring to the Hebrew directly, I recommend looking at "Young's Literal" translation.

Occurrences of "Day” ( yom”) with numbers, where "day" is not 24-hours:
"One day":
Zech 3:9
Zech 14:7-9

"Third day"
Hos 6:2

Occurrences of "Day” ( yom”) with "morning" or "evening", where "day" is not 24-hours:
Ps 30:5
Ps 49:14-15
Ps 90:6

For more information and discussion of some of these, see:
Greg Neyman: http://www.answersincreation.org/word_study_yom.htm
Rodney Whitefield: http://www.godandscience.org/youngea...ith_number.pdf
misc: http://www.answersincreation.org/yom_hebrew.htm

Feel free to pass that bit of data to Rodney Whitefield.

Rodney is a personal friend of mine; we co-lead two apologetics groups. We have discussed this issue before. Rodney is well aware of the erroneous YEC claims which you parrot here. He, unlike you, knows how to read Hebrew and to do word studies.

[Truthseeker]

Jorge, do you remember we discussed the phrase "40 days and 40 nights" (Genesis 7:4)? Do you interpret it as 40x24 hours (960 hours) of daylight and 40x12 hours (480 hours) of darkness? If so I would consider you a queer fella indeed.

[Omniskeptical]

The greek 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb doesn't use ημερα the greek cognate of yom. It would be close to 3 yoms or solars. Frankly, there is no linguistic case of an old earth being which written into the Jewish and Christian scriptures. You are better off hunting for a manuscript which doesn't use the terms.

[Jorge]

Jorge is well aware that the made up "rule" has no basis in reality but it has never slowed him down from citing it. I guess he thinks that if he keeps repeating it enough times it will somehow make it true. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, Goebbels would be proud.

As an additional note wrt the reference to Psalm 90:4 (mentioned in the third paragraph) in the next two verses (Psalm 90:5-6), human lives are compared to grass. It states that the grass sprouts in the morning and withers in the evening. In fact grasses live longer than a single day before dying. Evening and morning in this example do not refer to a 24-hour period of time and are obviously used figuratively.

Additionally, a little further on in the same Psalm (v.14), there is a plea for God to satisfy us with His love in the morning so that we may sing all our days (a lifetime).

I will not waste my time re-stating what groups such as AiG and CMI have already done - and done quite well. Besides, R06 et al. has absolutely NO desire to hear the truth - only to parrot distortions of God's Word that promote his doctrines. Be it known that every single one of those "exceptions" posted by R06 have been addressed and answered and R06 knows this because I have told him so several times in years past (and here again!). As I had stated before, those "exceptions" are an epic failure. Heaven forbid, however, that R06 should take the time to do his homework, least of all with an open, scholarly mind. Instead, R06 cites Hugh Ross (imagine that, Hugh Ross ) and will now surely plead "innocence due to ignorance". Perhaps no one has explained to R06 that ignorance is not a valid defense (?). But, hey, that's never stopped R06 before (or many others here at Tweb) so why start now?

One definition of insanity is doing the same over and over again expecting a different outcome. I guess, then, that I must be a bit insane because I keep expecting a different outcome with certain individuals here at TWeb and am disappointed when all I get is 'the same'.

Jorge

[Jorge]

Jorge, what you say is blatantly false. You could easily learn this yourself if you had the sense to do a proper Hebrew word study.

You should try knowing what you're talking about before making a jackass out of yourself.

Below are the examples that I have found by doing my own study. Note: For the examples below, it is best to check multiple translations. If not referring to the Hebrew directly, I recommend looking at "Young's Literal" translation.

Your "own studies" are sophomoric ... read below and see for yourself ...

Occurrences of "Day” ( yom”) with numbers, where "day" is not 24-hours:
"One day":
Zech 3:9

Zechariah 3:9-10Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

Why you even present this verse is beyond me.

Zech 14:7-9

Zechariah 14:7-9Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

I take it that you don't believe that ONE VERY SPECIFIC DAY the LORD will return to reign forever (?). It won't be an "undetermined / lengthy amount of time" but on a specific calendar date during one (24-hour) day.

"Third day"
Hos 6:2

Hosea 6:2Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
2 After two days will he revive us:
in the third day he will raise us up,
and we shall live in his sight.

Figurative language is in use here! The Hebrew idiomatic expression used, “After two days ... in the third day,” meaning “in a short time,” makes sense only if “day” is understood in its normal (24-hour .... short time) sense.

Occurrences of "Day” ( yom”) with "morning" or "evening", where "day" is not 24-hours:
Ps 30:5

Psalm 30:5Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
5 For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life:
weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

???????????????????????????

Ps 49:14-15

Psalm 49:14-15Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them;
and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning;
and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave:
for he shall receive me. Selah.

???????????????????????????????

Ps 90:6

Psalm 90:6Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up;
in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.

??????????????????????

Are you well, KB? Had you taken your meds before you cited those verses?
I'd also guess that you're using one of the corrupted/distorted modern Bible translations.

For more information and discussion of some of these, see:
Greg Neyman: http://www.answersincreation.org/word_study_yom.htm
Rodney Whitefield: http://www.godandscience.org/youngea...ith_number.pdf
misc: http://www.answersincreation.org/yom_hebrew.htm

Yeah ... right ... you want me renounce what I KNOW is right and pay heed to those that have already capitulated into a distorted, watered-down, "enlightened", Post-Modern "Christianity". Why don't you try holding your breath as you wait for me to do that, KB?

Rodney is a personal friend of mine; we co-lead two apologetics groups. We have discussed this issue before. Rodney is well aware of the erroneous YEC claims which you parrot here. He, unlike you, knows how to read Hebrew and to do word studies.

I don't "parrot" anything, kiddo - I do my own research, thank you very much. Ol' Rodney may read Hebrew but he appears to do so with a predisposed mind to interpret what he reads in a way that advances his extra-biblical beliefs. I don't read Hebrew but I can read what Hebrew scholars have found. I read from multiple sources, perform my own words studies, and then arrive at my own conclusions - again, thank you very much. You ought to try it someday.

Jorge

[rogue06]

I will not waste my time re-stating what groups such as AiG and CMI have already done - and done quite well. Besides, R06 et al. has absolutely NO desire to hear the truth - only to parrot distortions of God's Word that promote his doctrines. Be it known that every single one of those "exceptions" posted by R06 have been addressed and answered and R06 knows this because I have told him so several times in years past (and here again!).

Um... no. Your idea of addressing and answering is exactly how you did so above. Stomp your feet and grumble "nuh-uh" while hurling accusations of either drunkenness, drug abuse, deception/dishonesty, distortion or a combination of some of the above. You never make even the slightest attempt at showing how that I'm wrong, instead you merely proclaim from on high that I'm wrong and insist that everyone bow before you unsupported declaration.

As I had stated before, those "exceptions" are an epic failure. Heaven forbid, however, that R06 should take the time to do his homework, least of all with an open, scholarly mind. Instead, R06 cites Hugh Ross (imagine that, Hugh Ross ) and will now surely plead "innocence due to ignorance". Perhaps no one has explained to R06 that ignorance is not a valid defense (?). But, hey, that's never stopped R06 before (or many others here at Tweb) so why start now?

See, this is exactly where you demonstrate how I'm wrong rather than merely restate your claim that I'm wrong. While for YECs of your ilk making an uncorroborated claim is considered evidence and repeating the same claim again without anything to back it up constitutes providing supporting evidence that is not how it works in the real world.

I guess since you have no evidence to corroborate your assertions here you really have no choice. No choice other than to be honest enough to acknowledge that fact rather than to continue to provide fabricated and disproven claims.

One definition of insanity is doing the same over and over again expecting a different outcome. I guess, then, that I must be a bit insane because I keep expecting a different outcome with certain individuals here at TWeb and am disappointed when all I get is 'the same'.

Jorge

Expecting Jorge to corroborate his assertions must be insane.

[phank]

Expecting Jorge to corroborate his assertions must be insane.

A form of insanity, however, which has been almost universally practiced here for years with no sign of ever letting up. I cannot recall a single thread where Jorge has made a claim he has backed up - and very few threads where he has not been asked to back it up, usually by multiple people.

I think you're exactly correct. As I wrote back in the old days, the religious approach to knowledge is to SAY something is true, and saying it twice makes it twice as true. And since nothing else counts (certainly not evidence as normal people understand the term), Jorge is our exemplar of this method. And give him credit, he exercises it without exception.

[shunyadragon]

A form of insanity, however, which has been almost universally practiced here for years with no sign of ever letting up. I cannot recall a single thread where Jorge has made a claim he has backed up - and very few threads where he has not been asked to back it up, usually by multiple people.

I think you're exactly correct. As I wrote back in the old days, the religious approach to knowledge is to SAY something is true, and saying it twice makes it twice as true. And since nothing else counts (certainly not evidence as normal people understand the term), Jorge is our exemplar of this method. And give him credit, he exercises it without exception.

. . . and you guys persist in feeding the Troll and give him the key to the cage.

[Kbertsche]

Zechariah 3:9-10Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

Why you even present this verse is beyond me.

This is describing a future, eschatological "Day of The Lord", which it calls "one day". As the context shows, this "Day" is an extended time period during which people will behave differently. (Or do you think that the peaceful fellowship described in verse 10 lasts for only 24 hours?!?)

Zechariah 14:7-9Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

I take it that you don't believe that ONE VERY SPECIFIC DAY the LORD will return to reign forever (?). It won't be an "undetermined / lengthy amount of time" but on a specific calendar date during one (24-hour) day.

The entirety of chapter 14 is again describing the future, eschatological "Day of The Lord", which it again calls "one day". As verse 9 states, The Lord will be king "in that day". Do you think this is only a 24-hour period, restricting Christ's kingship to a single 24-hour day? I believe that the "one day" spoken of here is what John calls the "millennium"; it will be a 1000 year long "day".

Hosea 6:2Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
2 After two days will he revive us:
in the third day he will raise us up,
and we shall live in his sight.

Figurative language is in use here!

Exactly! This is figurative language; it is not literal. "Day" here is not a literal 24-hour period.

The Hebrew idiomatic expression used, “After two days ... in the third day,” meaning “in a short time,” makes sense only if “day” is understood in its normal (24-hour .... short time) sense.

Now you are engaging in inconsistent double-speak! Is "day" here figurative or literal? You seem to say one, then the other!

Psalm 30:5Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
5 For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life:
weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

???????????????????????????

Psalm 49:14-15Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them;
and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning;
and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave:
for he shall receive me. Selah.

???????????????????????????????

Psalm 90:6Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
6 In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up;
in the evening it is cut down, and withereth.

??????????????????????

Are you well, KB? Had you taken your meds before you cited those verses?
I'd also guess that you're using one of the corrupted/distorted modern Bible translations.

Oops, sorry, I made a cut and paste error here. These are not examples of a figurative "day" used with "morning" and/or "evening". Rather, they are simply examples of "morning" and/or "evening" being used figuratively.

The third one (Ps. 90) is especially significant, in that it was authored by Moses himself. Moses clearly could use these terms in a figurative manner. And notice that the word "day" ("yom") does appear in this context (verse 4) in what may be a figurative sense.

[Jorge]

This is describing a future, eschatological "Day of The Lord", which it calls "one day". As the context shows, this "Day" is an extended time period during which people will behave differently. (Or do you think that the peaceful fellowship described in verse 10 lasts for only 24 hours?!?)

Okay ... so? It happens in a literal (24-hour) day - the duration is another matter.

The entirety of chapter 14 is again describing the future, eschatological "Day of The Lord", which it again calls "one day". As verse 9 states, The Lord will be king "in that day". Do you think this is only a 24-hour period, restricting Christ's kingship to a single 24-hour day? I believe that the "one day" spoken of here is what John calls the "millennium"; it will be a 1000 year long "day".

Same comment as above.

Exactly! This is figurative language; it is not literal. "Day" here is not a literal 24-hour period.

No one - certainly not I - has ever denied that figurative language is used throughout the Bible. That said, context is crucial for proper interpretation. Also critical is what I call "Global Context". By this I mean that not just proximate context but also context from the entire Bible's perspective. This is critical because one Book in Scripture cannot (and does not) contradict another. This is the essential part of the age-proven sound hermeneutic-exegesis for Bible interpretation (namely, grammatical-historical plus Scripture interprets Scripture).

Now you are engaging in inconsistent double-speak! Is "day" here figurative or literal? You seem to say one, then the other!

No, I am not "engaging in double-speak" - . To accuse me of this you are taking an isolated exegetical instance sans the complete hermeneutic/exegesis. That can give an appearance of double-speak, I'll kindly grant you that, but it's just appearance.

Christ said: I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. John 10:9. Clearly He was using figurative language - e.g., Christ is not a literal door. Yet, those words do not convey their intended meaning unless the person reading them knows what a literal door is - it's function and what it provides. That is what takes place in Hosea 6:2. That is NOT what is going on in Genesis 1-2. Those that - in order to support their non-biblical beliefs - use the excuse that "figurative/allegorical/poetic language is used throughout Scripture", consistently fail to provide the full panorama.

You may accept or reject my explanation. Just be aware that not "double-speak".

Oops, sorry, I made a cut and paste error here. These are not examples of a figurative "day" used with "morning" and/or "evening". Rather, they are simply examples of "morning" and/or "evening" being used figuratively.

No problem - we all make mistakes. From the above you can see that each and every "counter-example" that you provided was refuted (again, you may choose to accept or reject what I provided but it is there and is not "double-speak" or illogical).

The third one (Ps. 90) is especially significant, in that it was authored by Moses himself. Moses clearly could use these terms in a figurative manner. And notice that the word "day" ("yom") does appear in this context (verse 4) in what may be a figurative sense.

What I've written above answers what you say here.

Jorge

[Jorge]

. . . and you guys persist in feeding the Troll and give him the key to the cage.

Is that your pic in the avatar space? If so, go see if you can get
your beard caught in a meat grinder. I'd pay good money to see that.

Jorge