Holding their feet to the fire ...

[Jorge]

As usual Jorge does a face plant in his response. Completely unable to refute anything stated he squawks out an insult or two and acts like it was somehow an intelligent response. Abraham Lincoln offered some sage advice in such matters:

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

Of course you could demonstrate I'm wrong and show that NCSE requires construction workers and the like to accept evolutionary theory before they can be employed by them. But let's face it, you know they don't. That sort of behavior is limited to paranoid fanatics who seem so insecure in their beliefs they fear that some guy laying dry wall might shake up their beliefs.

I would not want to lend credibility to your &*!^@%_(%$E#$ KRAPOLA BS NONSENSE with anything other than mockery. If you wish to believe that this is because I am "unable to refute" or am "doing a face plant" or anything else that make you feel warm and fuzzy inside then be my guest - I'm happy that you feel "good" inside.

Jorge

[Jorge]

Ok, so what piece(s) of the picture am I not revealing? Let's see:Ok, so Jorge can't think of any. Looks like Jorge is spreading galliturd as usual.

So let's look at the complete picture. This is from the ICR's admissions website:

And those tenets include this:Students applying to the ICR have to agree that there is evidence that the Earth is young and that rocks were laid down by the flood before taking the courses on Global Flood Evidences and Creationist Analysis of the Age of the Earth.

Roy

You are changing what the dispute and my challenge are all about -- no surprise there.
Has your tongue burst into flames and then exploded yet?

Jorge

[Jorge]

While several of the Early Church Fathers held that the creation account described six literal, sequential 24 hour long days, many did not. Augustine is perhaps the best known. A number, for various reasons, held that each day represented a thousand years in length.

See my post # 375 -- the education is there for you also should you want it.
My money says that you do NOT want it -- it wouldn't serve your agenda.

Jorge

[HMS_Beagle]

I would not want to lend credibility to your &*!^@%_(%$E#$ KRAPOLA BS NONSENSE with anything other than mockery. If you wish to believe that this is because I am "unable to refute" or am "doing a face plant" or anything else that make you feel warm and fuzzy inside then be my guest - I'm happy that you feel "good" inside.

Jorge

If Jorge's scientific knowledge was 1/100th as big as his flapping mouth he'd be a lock to take the next dozen Nobel Prizes.

Hey Jorge, what caused the formation of Barringer Meteor Crater in Arizona?

[klaus54]

Goebbels would have been proud to name you as his second-in-command.

Jorge

Dear Gawd,

It's a total hoot to watch the Jor-meister project!

K54

P.S. YEC Presuppositional Apologists are more fun to watch than the Kardashians.

[Roy]

You are changing what the dispute and my challenge are all about -- no surprise there.
Has your tongue burst into flames and then exploded yet?

You introduced the ICR to this thread, in post #297. You replied to my comments about them in post #325. But now that your idiotic response has been beaten into a fine pink mist, you suddenly want to talk about something else. Or as you yourself characterised it:

the dishonest tactic of shifting the subject.

You are not only dishonest by others' criteria, you are dishonest by your own.

I'd hold your feet to the fire but they've obviously been there for so long that you've got cauterised cojones.

Roy

[phank]

The Hebrew word that is translated to the English word "day" ("yom") may have been mistranslated. In English "day" sometimes means the sun-up part of the 24-hour cycle of day and night, but "yom," according to someone named Whitefield, sometimes means an indefinite period of time; conceivably, billions of years.

And so, just from reading that text, you have no idea what was meant by a "day" - whether it means the kind of days that make up weeks, or the kind we mean when we speak of "back in the day". And so, as I said, FIRST we have to use a method that produces actual knowledge. THEN, armed with knowledge and the conviction that scripture must be correct, we seek some way for scripture to say what we now know it must mean. And thus, once again, scripture added nothing to our knowledge, except to provide details about the theological musings and cosmological creativity of an ancient culture.

Now, I think anthropology is interesting stuff, don't get me wrong. But still it seems a waste of time to look at the mythology of even one, much less dozens of cultures, and try to find excuses to force-fit those myths into modern understandings, as though those people were somehow actually told how reality works, but the limitations of their culture and concepts obliged them to bungle it so badly as to be beyond all recognition.

Seriously, what's so hard about saying "well, those people guessed wrong"? We know that's what they did, why the inability to say so?

[lilpixieofterror]

I have been kind and gentlemanly in asking you to NOT misrepresent my position. By your continuous refusal to do so, is it that you are WANTING me to get nasty? Is that your objective? Go on, tell me here and now.

Looking in that mirror again Jorge because you misrepresented myself and other people all the time and cry foul every time you even think somebody is misrepresenting you (even when you fail to prove that charge, over and over again). So let me get this straight; comparing me to a Nazi is ok in Jorge land, but God forbid Jorge even thinks anybody is misrepresenting him. What irony! You keep proving, over and over again, that your computer is a mirror that reflects yourself.

You rank high here in TWeb on the list of Ignorance and also on the list of Irrational/Illogical - I have mentioned that to you more than once. In the above post you provide additional evidence supporting my claim.

Getting that charge from you is sort of like being on the Nazi worst criminal list for smuggling Jews out of Europe. It's a badge of honor and thanks for bestowing that honor for me. See, the thing is, in order for your opinion to matter, people actually have to take you seriously. Even many of your fellow YEC's tend to keep their distance from you and even go as far as to stand in opposition of you. Hummm... I wonder why...

As for your bringing up Augustine (as Theistic Evolutionists often do in ignorance, stupidity or dishonesty) below is an excerpt from an article (link below that). But first let me just say that if you people stuck to the facts about Augustine and his beliefs - instead of the created fictions, distortions and misrepresentations regarding him - then you would wisely never bring him up again in defense of your heretical beliefs.

Sorry Jorge, I see lots of talk, but I really don't see any references going back to what Augustine actually said. While on the other hand, Rogue has provided direct quotes, of Augustine's words, that prove the opposite. Who should I believe... a source where a mere 2 sources of information or actual quotes by Augustine himself. Hummm... decisions decisions. Funny thing is though, even if one accepts the idea that Augustine later changed his mind, there is no evidence to suggest that he changed his mind due to thinking positions other than YEC were heretics or not 'true Christians'. If you believe YEC is a central doctrine of the faith... why is it not included in the creeds of the church? Can you explain where non YEC positions were ever declared a hearsay or is it because Jorge said so, so it must be true?

Note that this article is from 2009 and these facts have been known for a lot longer than that which is why the only two possible defenses for you people are IGNORANCE or DISHONESTY. No third alternative exists.

"As his theology matured, Augustine abandoned his earlier allegorizations of Genesis that old-earth creationists and theistic evolutionists have latched onto in an attempt to justify adding deep time to the Bible. Furthermore, he always believed in a young earth."

Link to article: http://creation.com/augustine-young-earth-creationist


There -- you may no longer use the "ignorance" excuse.

While bald assertions made by ignorant creationist, who look towards other creations for confirmation of their theory, well... amuse me to no end; where are the actual words of Augustine himself held up to be analyzed with a thoroughly conclusion that Augustine was a YEC Christian or at least came to see non YEC positions as a hearsay? What we have here is a populist article, with no contributed sources (beyond creation.com that is) to support its conclusions with. Just a list of broad assertions. While that might work fine for time tested theories that you don't need to go into detail on, it doesn't cut it when it comes to actually dealing with the theory in question. You might as well give a link to a populist article on the heliocentric model, while trying to refute a geocentric view. You need to get into the nitty griddy details of the heliocentric model, if you are dealing with somebody who questions the heliocentric model to begin with. Instead of giving a link to an article that basically assumes its conclusions are correct, why don't you give us an article that actually goes into depth on the issue or am I asking too much from you?

[lilpixieofterror]

While several of the Early Church Fathers held that the creation account described six literal, sequential 24 hour long days, many did not. Augustine is perhaps the best known. A number, for various reasons, held that each day represented a thousand years in length.

Of course and even among those that did hold to a YEC position, a modern day YEC would still have to prove a few things:

1. That positions other than YEC were seen as a hearsay.
2. That the YEC they are talking about is the same as the modern day version of YEC.

This, of course, requires a lot of hard research and reading. While I haven't spent the time to see and answer the detail of the two points above, I would think the fact that the age of the earth was never made into a central doctrine of the faith would render the first position unlikely. The second one, well that is up to them to prove and not my job to refute or prove.

[Jorge]

If Jorge's scientific knowledge was 1/100th as big as his flapping mouth he'd be a lock to take the next dozen Nobel Prizes.

Hey Jorge, what caused the formation of Barringer Meteor Crater in Arizona?

I'm still trying to figure out how your mouth is at 5-sigma larger than the mean.

Jorge

[Jorge]

Dear Gawd,

It's a total hoot to watch the Jor-meister project!

K54

P.S. YEC Presuppositional Apologists are more fun to watch than the Kardashians.

You really ought not to distort / screw-around with God's name ("Gawd").
Of course, you distort / screw-around with His Holy Word so I know I'm wasting my breath.
"Christians" like yourself are a scary indication of where things are nowadays.

Jorge

[Jorge]

Looking in that mirror again Jorge because you misrepresented myself and other people all the time and cry foul every time you even think somebody is misrepresenting you (even when you fail to prove that charge, over and over again). So let me get this straight; comparing me to a Nazi is ok in Jorge land, but God forbid Jorge even thinks anybody is misrepresenting him. What irony! You keep proving, over and over again, that your computer is a mirror that reflects yourself.



Getting that charge from you is sort of like being on the Nazi worst criminal list for smuggling Jews out of Europe. It's a badge of honor and thanks for bestowing that honor for me. See, the thing is, in order for your opinion to matter, people actually have to take you seriously. Even many of your fellow YEC's tend to keep their distance from you and even go as far as to stand in opposition of you. Hummm... I wonder why...



Sorry Jorge, I see lots of talk, but I really don't see any references going back to what Augustine actually said. While on the other hand, Rogue has provided direct quotes, of Augustine's words, that prove the opposite. Who should I believe... a source where a mere 2 sources of information or actual quotes by Augustine himself. Hummm... decisions decisions. Funny thing is though, even if one accepts the idea that Augustine later changed his mind, there is no evidence to suggest that he changed his mind due to thinking positions other than YEC were heretics or not 'true Christians'. If you believe YEC is a central doctrine of the faith... why is it not included in the creeds of the church? Can you explain where non YEC positions were ever declared a hearsay or is it because Jorge said so, so it must be true?



While bald assertions made by ignorant creationist, who look towards other creations for confirmation of their theory, well... amuse me to no end; where are the actual words of Augustine himself held up to be analyzed with a thoroughly conclusion that Augustine was a YEC Christian or at least came to see non YEC positions as a hearsay? What we have here is a populist article, with no contributed sources (beyond creation.com that is) to support its conclusions with. Just a list of broad assertions. While that might work fine for time tested theories that you don't need to go into detail on, it doesn't cut it when it comes to actually dealing with the theory in question. You might as well give a link to a populist article on the heliocentric model, while trying to refute a geocentric view. You need to get into the nitty griddy details of the heliocentric model, if you are dealing with somebody who questions the heliocentric model to begin with. Instead of giving a link to an article that basically assumes its conclusions are correct, why don't you give us an article that actually goes into depth on the issue or am I asking too much from you?

Other than to say what follows I'm not wasting much more time on you, Terror ...

Over the years I discovered a rather simple test for 'flushing out' severely dishonest people - people for which "honesty" is only a vague, foreign concept. The test is simply this: note if they EVER concede a point, even a relatively small one, that has some substance to it. If that never happens then you're probably dealing with someone that has the integrity of a toilet bowl. You and others here at TWeb (and they either know or suspect who they are) are such specimens.

As the latest example of your 'integrity', in your post above you state things that clearly distort reality since the author of the article directly quotes a number times from several of Augustine's works. Furthermore, the author is is an expert in the field having directly worked on the topic he is writing about. But heaven forbid that you should grant one iota of acknowledgement - that would burst your agenda and your lies. Those are your 'fruits' ... that is how you become 'known' to me and to others.

Now ... BUG OFF!!!

Jorge

[rogue06]

Other than to say what follows I'm not wasting much more time on you, Terror ...

Over the years I discovered a rather simple test for 'flushing out' severely dishonest people - people for which "honesty" is only a vague, foreign concept. The test is simply this: note if they EVER concede a point, even a relatively small one, that has some substance to it.

Give yourself a big fat F since you miserably fail your own test.

[Truthseeker]

How interesting is that in Jorge's suggested reading re Augustine http://creation.com/augustine-young-earth-creationist
that the author said Augustine misinterpreted a Latin passage, thus coming to a wrong conclusion. The author went on to warn us to "know your Greek!" Well, we, especially YECs, should know ancient Hebrew also!

[Jorge]

Give yourself a big fat F since you miserably fail your own test.

WOW ... I guess that shows me who's right around here.

NOT !!!


BTW, you're in the same herd as Terror so it's clear why you're lashing out.

Jorge